Our gaming groups observations (Long)

[Guchi]

Since we are coming up for a new book I thought i would write about our groups observations, we are a large group with 10+ ACTA gamers and have run recently a 2nd ed campaign and a large long running tournament, i'll cover everything we have noticed and talked about, first race issues then general stuff, note that we between us own nearly all the fleets, so they have been played with not just idle speculation

Abbai

We have two abbai players currently, myself and one other in general the abbai as a solo race have a number of issues we both agree on:

Bimith is currently too slow, too short ranged and is better replaced by 2x Milani in every way, I just can't currently justify this hull over two Milani, or even taking two of these over a Lakara!, We are optimistic that the manouverabilty fix coming will help matters, but it still lacks somthing since its terrible range means even bog standard ships tend to out range it.

3rd Age Earth Alliance

I find myself wondering what exactly this fleet is meant to do, it doesn't seem to excel at anything and some of the Hulls struggle to find a use, example:

Nova, Lots of dice thrown, but as yet ive had issues getting it in range against most opponents, since it is move 6 most fleets with any degree of manoeuvrability seem to out run it, I think thats my only grumble, but in 6 games used I struggle to think of any time they have matched a Hyperion's damage.

Omegas, while a good solid hull suffers against races which ignore interceptors, I think that they are overvalued on this hull, since they are worthless against minbari and a growing number of e-mine and beam heavy races, not to mention fighters strip them down fast. This means against some races its prehaps more fragile than it would normally be as a battle level vessel. Also once in brawl range, its firepower is somewhat lacking. For a broadside fleet it strikes me that the omegas broadsides don't seem all that good, the beam is great, but once ships close this lumbering vessel is worse off firepower wise than a nova, I typically get two to three shots off with the beam and then wish i had taken two hyperions instead, since i typically get more shots off due to increased turns with the beams, and secondarys tend to do well.

All in all, 3rd age work, but seem to need a carefully designed fleet more than Crusade era or early. One thing that seems awkward about the fleet is its seeming dependence on boresight beams. If earth are a Broadside fleet why is most of the firepower on the front? Lumbering on hulls that have low movement and boresight firepower restricts the tactics availble, and makes them very prone to fast manoeuvrable fleets.

Narn

Lately our narn player has been leaving the "Classic Ships" behind, and has had good success with Var'nics G'vrans and support with Dag'kars and the odd G'quan. He never uses t'loths anymore.
For a flying brick force he seems to do well with a fast moving force.
Hes made a good fleet, but we agree that it just doesn't feel like narn should play like it.

Minbari

Victims of the two most luck varible rules in the game, Beams and Stealth. On a good day he takes hardly any damage, and beams shread everything, on a bad day, everything sees him and beams bounce off everything.

ISA

We all pretty much agree, the white star has too many good points, it is:

Tougher than most raid ships
Fast and more manoverable than all raid ships.
Has great secondaries
A good ranged beam
carries a good flight, or has scout on an effective combat hull
Has no downsides aside from a weakness to fighters (which is get roundable) and E-mines(which not every fleet has)

What is its weak point,why take anything else in the fleet?
Seriously?!

We think that the current PAP changes are a bit fiddly, to be honest the best Idea so far is the shortening of ranges, (I think 12" for beam and 8" for pulsars is about the right balance) means at least it can't attack without at least taking some fire in return!

Bluestars are fine, except in campaigns. Some missions are just not set up for this kind of ship, we had a number of games where they just could not lose, Fine at higher levels, but if you've ever seen 5 BS vs 3 hermes... well yeah

Drahk, AMU AMU AMU..... As a drahk player I welcome the changes, it really was a bit over the top hehe.

Shadows, Again suffer from Beam Freak syndrome, and well the fighter issues really needed addressing, but the new changes seem spot on.

Vorlons, Need a Raid choice, and a bit of variety, nothing particularly wrong with them, but they are the same ship each time just a bit bigger each time.

General

Beams, Okay, I feel they should be capped, with say 3 re-rolls max, I've seen far too many games swung by supposedly freak dice rolls. The do ruin games in one fell swoop and again discourage big ships.

Stealth, Much better than 1st edition but still a potential game wrecker, with a couple of games simply down to one players inability to roll highish or or the other way around, club concensus is that it should be per weapon system, to round out a bit of freak luck.

Campaigns, Some missions are un-winable by one side with some races, however you don't tend to run into these issues until you try the mission. Also the randomness of the level and size of games means that big hulls are a liablity which is a shame, and awkward for certain races with few large games being played (I think our poor Shadow player only got to use a crab once in 5 turns of campaign, and that because EVERYONE -3 to the level roll and he was unlucky with the points on most game.

Crits
If the ships were balanced so that a battle say was better than two raid, then the crit vulnerability issue would be worth it. However currently I feel that smaller ships should somehow be weaker when attacking larger ships, at least in the crit results issues. To go back to a previous example, the omega feels worse than two hyperions, less beam, less hits, way less manoverbity and more vunrable to crits. I wont mention two omegas versus a warlock

Anyway, we are still playing and still enjoying the game and for the most part we are happy, but these bit stick out, and the randomness of certain event can ruin a game and instantly lose a game for you without anything you could do.

Anyway im tired and its time for my bed, Theres some more ideas in my head, i'll try and post those tommorow.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

with your third age try and focus more on your carrier groups. Since you have a raid level fleet carrier and the Posiedon you can put together a rather nasty fighter attack at the battle level. My personal favourite fleet comp is as follows.

5 point battle
Posiedon super carrier (12 T-bolts and 12 auroras)
2 Avengers (4 T-bolts and 4 auroras each)
2 Hyperions (Auroras)
2 Artemis gunships, 2 Olympus corvettes (with heavy missiles)

 

[CratZ]

Agree on third age. They just don't seem to be good at really anything. Being jacks of all trades doesnt help much either, since I mostly play Vree and Dilgar. Both races just seem to do better at every aspect of the game than EA. I honestly think EA needs a boost to sidearc weapons.

But since everyone on these boards seems to care more about fluff than game balance I have little hope for a balanced game...

 

[Tolwyn]

Agree on third age. They just don't seem to be good at really anything. Being jacks of all trades doesnt help much either, since I mostly play Vree and Dilgar. Both races just seem to do better at every aspect of the game than EA. I honestly think EA needs a boost to sidearc weapons.

But since everyone on these boards seems to care more about fluff than game balance I have little hope for a balanced game...

Not everyone, but many. I would like to see a balanced game, too.

 

[Hindsight]

But since everyone on these boards seems to care more about fluff than game balance I have little hope for a balanced game...

I would like to point out that you have been on these forums almost a year, and have wracked up almost 45 posts in that time of almost one year. That is not a whole lot of contributions. You can't knock what is said on the forums, when you yourself choose not to jump in and become involved in the discussion. The only wrong choice, is not to say anything at all. Your feedback on what creates balance is what we need, whether you agree with us fluff nuts or not.

Fluff is important for several reasons, but I'll assume you're smart enough to know the rest, so I'll stick to the main reason. This is a game based on an intellectual property that is loved by millions. Imagine a star trek game like this, and tell me you wouldn't have people debating how far an aft phaser can fire while at Warp 7.

If you don't care about this game representing the property it is based on, go play something made up, from scratch. Try War Machine, or Warhammer, games that don't have any fluff to hold them back, that aren't based on anything inparticular.

This is Babylon 5.

P.S. - FireFox Spell check has no idea what a phaser is.

 

[Greg Smith]

Guchi, that is a very insightful description of how the game plays and how the fleets work.

 

[Ripple]

Agreed, great post thread Guchi.

I think most of the locals here agree on what you've said. Only quibble might be the 3rd Age list as I feel that it does do Carrier force well and is one of the better sniper races, due to the turrets/all around fire from the skirmish choices.

Nova suffers from some of the same issues as the bimith... to slow for its range and role. With sniper ships firing at 30 to 45 inches, having a max powered lunge of 21 just doesn't work, especially when you have so much firepower tied up in flights you can't afford not to launch them, adding a turn to your wait for firing.

Bimith - issue here is that a variant is needed that is not a specialist. They have effectively redefined the Bimith as a cruiser level escort... not a bad thing, but we need the Aldrith or its equivalent back. ie a raid level main combat hull. Even a 1 AD turreted Combat laser would bring the bimith back into play for me (giving up escort), we'll see if they put the mine rules in... might help a bit.

Both the above ships also suffer from something I call single damage syndrome. Basically, the game lives and dies on crits... but single damage weapon ships don't play into that well. Typically it takes two or three times the PL of the target ship firing at it to kill it, unless you have a DD/TD critical hit... in which case a single ship of the same level has a chance to kill. Single damage ships don't have this effect... they always a number of ships involved to kill anything, usually 3 times the pl or more.

This makes them feel weak even if the 'average' damage isn't bad... there are no spectacular moments, so you feel better with a Hyperion type where the average damage is only a bit weaker, and it's got great moments.

Fluff vs Balance - actually I really want both if at all possible. Sometimes something has to give... in those cases I'd rather it give in a way that doesn't contradict what we've seen... as really there aren't that many combat scenes.

The game can suffer from too many high variance rules... beams, stealth etc... wish we'd gotten away from that.

Ripple

 

[CratZ]

But since everyone on these boards seems to care more about fluff than game balance I have little hope for a balanced game...

I would like to point out that you have been on these forums almost a year, and have wracked up almost 45 posts in that time of almost one year. That is not a whole lot of contributions. You can't knock what is said on the forums, when you yourself choose not to jump in and become involved in the discussion. The only wrong choice, is not to say anything at all. Your feedback on what creates balance is what we need, whether you agree with us fluff nuts or not.

Fluff is important for several reasons, but I'll assume you're smart enough to know the rest, so I'll stick to the main reason. This is a game based on an intellectual property that is loved by millions. Imagine a star trek game like this, and tell me you wouldn't have people debating how far an aft phaser can fire while at Warp 7.

If you don't care about this game representing the property it is based on, go play something made up, from scratch. Try War Machine, or Warhammer, games that don't have any fluff to hold them back, that aren't based on anything inparticular.

This is Babylon 5.

P.S. - FireFox Spell check has no idea what a phaser is.

OT:

Even though I dont post much doesn't mean I havent been reading on these forums. All Im saying is that I have noticed that many posters care more about fluff than balance. If the majority on these boards wants the game to represent the show, even at the expense of game balance, it isnt hard to guess which direction mongoose will take. Im saying I have little hope because I seem to belong to the minority and no matter how many posts, no matter how big my E-penis is, it seems more likely that mongoose will cater to the majority. (as any company that wants to make profit tbh)

What comes to other games I play warhammer and I like the game alot.

I also do understand that fluff is important, but when every good solution to balance the game gets shot down by fluff reasons you cross the line (my line atleast). This is when fluff becomes a burden. Too much is too much.

 

[l33tpenguin]

There needs to be a balance between fluff and... well, balance. More than likely, if you are playing ACtA you are playing it to play with ships from and inspired by Babylon 5. We aren't playing ST or SW or LotR, we are playing B5. If adding interseptors to the shadows or the pulse weapons to the Minbari or shields to the EA: Early years would create the ultimate perfect balance, I don't want to see it, no matter how perfect the balance would be.

Now, what I want to see is balance that reflects fluff.

 

[noobdelux]

made me wonder.. how many of us plays cause: its a game, its b5, or a good balanced game : P

 

[stepan.razin]

But since everyone on these boards seems to care more about fluff than game balance I have little hope for a balanced game...

I would like to point out that you have been on these forums almost a year, and have wracked up almost 45 posts in that time of almost one year. That is not a whole lot of contributions. You can't knock what is said on the forums, when you yourself choose not to jump in and become involved in the discussion. The only wrong choice, is not to say anything at all. Your feedback on what creates balance is what we need, whether you agree with us fluff nuts or not.

Fluff is important for several reasons, but I'll assume you're smart enough to know the rest, so I'll stick to the main reason. This is a game based on an intellectual property that is loved by millions. Imagine a star trek game like this, and tell me you wouldn't have people debating how far an aft phaser can fire while at Warp 7.

If you don't care about this game representing the property it is based on, go play something made up, from scratch. Try War Machine, or Warhammer, games that don't have any fluff to hold them back, that aren't based on anything inparticular.

This is Babylon 5.

P.S. - FireFox Spell check has no idea what a phaser is.

OT:

Even though I dont post much doesn't mean I havent been reading on these forums. All Im saying is that I have noticed that many posters care more about fluff than balance. If the majority on these boards wants the game to represent the show, even at the expense of game balance, it isnt hard to guess which direction mongoose will take. Im saying I have little hope because I seem to belong to the minority and no matter how many posts, no matter how big my E-penis is, it seems more likely that mongoose will cater to the majority. (as any company that wants to make profit tbh)

What comes to other games I play warhammer and I like the game alot.

I also do understand that fluff is important, but when every good solution to balance the game gets shot down by fluff reasons you cross the line (my line atleast). This is when fluff becomes a burden. Too much is too much.

I may be wrong, but I dont think what happens on these forums will have any significant impact on the game. One of the most popular ideas (near unanimous if I remember) has been shot down by Him because its too big of a change.

 

[l33tpenguin]

made me wonder.. how many of us plays cause: its a game, its b5, or a good balanced game : P

I play because its Babylon 5. That is THE reason I play. I don't play Trek mini games, I don't play SW mini games, I don't play Warhammer or anything else. I play ACtA and I have no interest in playing any other game. Unless, of course, another B5 game is made.

Oh, I am interested in the Warcraft miniatures game.

 

[CratZ]

Well to a certain degree because its a game. If you wanted to experience the B5 universe but ignore the gaming part you should go outside and LARP.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Well to a certain degree because its a game. If you wanted to experience the B5 universe but ignore the gaming part you should go outside and LARP.

I'm still working on my Omega suit. I can't seem to get the rotating section to spin around my waist like I want it to. :roll:

The B5 aspect trumps the game aspect. Period. As I've said, I'm interested in playing with B5 ships. Do I want Balance? Yes. Am I willing to sacrifice the spirit of what makes B5 in order to achieve that? No.

 

[Hindsight]

I dunno, I don't like minis that you can't paint yourself. The Void Walker is pretty cool looking though, I may just buy a couple singles for old times sake. I've been clean from WoW for a good while now. (four days)

My point about your point count, is that you haven't offered up alternatives. If something is out of balance, give us your ideas about what makes it in balance, and we'll help refine that so it reflects the fluff.

The White Star is up for debate constantly, and the Knife Fight Variant being a popular modification to the craft, it took the fluff (it fights up close, making strafing runs) and balanced it against the game (shorter range, means fewer turns shooting, and brings it in range of secondaries).

I hope you can see this for what it is, us balancing the fluff with the game, and trying to find that sweet spot, where the crafts represent the property. Of course, TV shows rely on perception, and perception varies, but is reality for each individual. Take Lando for example, I could argue that he is the main character of the entire series, where others might say the true underlying story is G'Kar's rise to the status of a profit.

It is all about the sweet spot, and if you posted more, sharing ideas, being mature about your feedback not being taken when it isn't, and stopped saying things like you had no hope, you'd be a lot happier, and you'd feel more in tune with the greater community.

Yesterday marked the one month mark since I joined these forums. I feel connected, I feel like I have been involved, and I feel like I've gotten to know these people, and we've had some really amazing discussions about our little toy space ships set out on pieces of felt splattered with paint.

What can you do in a month? Have faith in Him. Matt won't let us down.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I dunno, I don't like minis that you can't paint yourself. The Void Walker is pretty cool looking though, I may just buy a couple singles for old times sake. I've been clean from WoW for a good while now. (four days)

Six months for me! Well, of course I've been deployed for six months, there might be a connection... I agree, I like painting stuff, but I'm terrible at painting people. The game system looks really interesting, though. I know, totally off topic.

My point about your point count, is that you haven't offered up alternatives. If something is out of balance, give us your ideas about what makes it in balance, and we'll help refine that so it reflects the fluff.

The White Star is up for debate constantly, and the Knife Fight Variant being a popular modification to the craft, it took the fluff (it fights up close, making strafing runs) and balanced it against the game (shorter range, means fewer turns shooting, and brings it in range of secondaries).

I love the knife fighter design. Balance and fluff, yea! That is something I'm more than happy with.

I hope you can see this for what it is, us balancing the fluff with the game, and trying to find that sweet spot, where the crafts represent the property. Of course, TV shows rely on perception, and perception varies, but is reality for each individual. Take Lando for example, I could argue that he is the main character of the entire series, where others might say the true underlying story is G'Kar's rise to the status of a profit.

I disagree. I don't think that a one time smuggler, turned gas miner and head of a floating city has much to do with the main arc of Babylon 5... /snap

It is all about the sweet spot, and if you posted more, sharing ideas, being mature about your feedback not being taken when it isn't, and stopped saying things like you had no hope, you'd be a lot happier, and you'd feel more in tune with the greater community.

Yesterday marked the one month mark since I joined these forums. I feel connected, I feel like I have been involved, and I feel like I've gotten to know these people, and we've had some really amazing discussions about our little toy space ships set out on pieces of felt splattered with paint.

What can you do in a month? Have faith in Him. Matt won't let us down.

Its been a month? Wow. Its been excellent having you onboard, Hind.

 

[Guchi]

Thankyou for replies, and kind comments

Just quick post since ive not been well today, but a couple of comments.

I would have loved to have gone carrier crazy, but alas two things held me back: the insane amount of counters/models required and per weapon system effects such as GEG and AA. working out that many fighters on an indiviual basis would take a long time, my current fleet already is a bit painful when it comes to that (25 flights half thunderbolts with two weapon systems each)

As for the balance versus fluff item? Well what do we know for definate about most of the races, after all what we see ship wise on screen is a tiny slice, Comments about Omega beams not being/being boresight aside, the best we can do is take what is seen on screen and write rules that feel "right". A few AD and a few inches here and there are not a problem, but dramatic changes such as the omega developing shields overnight are a no no.

Take early EA against minbari, theroticaly there should be no way they can win, yet currently they are one of the most dangerous fleets in the game, should we change it? No, this kind of cannon belongs as narrative campaigns and scenarios. It is easier to assume that the playing field has been narrowed by some outside force for narrative point of view, say the Early EA has lured a green Minbari Admiral into a area where their stealth systems are reduced etc...

Well thats my inital thoughts anyway

 

[l33tpenguin]

In theory, the value of ships is in what they cost. That alone is where balance comes into play. You can design any sort of ship you want and make it as close to fluff and canon as possible within the mechanics and it is just fine. Until it is priced. If the cost of the ship is reflective of the ships capabilities with regard to the other ships, it is balanced. If its cost isn't reflective, it is unbalanced.

And, not taking cost into account, because cost of ships is the only real game balancing mechanic, the Minbari will win against EA:EY every time. Because realistically, the Minbari will be fielding a half dozen War Cruisers for every Hyperion, Nova and Olympus that earth fields. And 6 War Cruisers against a sinlg Hyperion is a very one sided fight.

But because we are playing a game, we have the 'cost' factored into the size of the forces fighting and thus Earth can take a dozen other ships to 1 Minbari War Cruiser.

 

[Ripple]

l33t is spot on about the balance point...

make the ship feel like the show, then see how many of x are needed to fight y and apply points accordingly.

Ripple

 

[Ripple]

To be fair about post count and such...

A lot of us have suggested things over time and seen them shot down. We've even seen whole 'movements' get shot down, or tabled for so long we felt they had been shot down. That happens a few times and you get discouraged.

Sometimes it even seems they won't take a suggestion because it was pushed on the boards, they have to have some way to stamp it 'their idea' so something that is pretty finely balanced gets thrown off when they try to make it theirs. I don't know that its happened on this board... but I've seen it happen a few times elsewhere...

TTT feels like the bastard child of all the threads on bore sight reform and initiative... but the first version was really a good work... special action that lets you get some of the same benefit as CAF in a way (the full on bore or half if you go off at the time of fire version... not extra firepower... but the ability not to waste what you have if you get lucky with another ship) as well as dealing with the bore issue to a degree.

Ripple