Other skills

[rinku]

Now, I'm fully across Referees adding whatever skills they deem necessary and understand the preview may not include all Pioneer skills, but I was curious as to some of the things in the preview in regard to skill differences between CRB Traveller and Pioneer.

There's no skill in there for social sciences or humanities, such as History. Are those intended to be done through Profession as appears to be the case for artistic skills? Where does Archaeology stand? Science (Planetary) or Profession (Archaeologist)?

Is there an established Traveller to Pioneer skill guide? Most are obvious, but it took me a while to spot that sensor operations is mainly Engineering (Electronics).

 

[MongooseMatt]

There's no skill in there for social sciences or humanities, such as History. Are those intended to be done through Profession as appears to be the case for artistic skills? Where does Archaeology stand? Science (Planetary) or Profession (Archaeologist)?

There is a degree of only having skills that will be used during the game. Not going to be a great call for archaeologists on the Moon or Mars, and related skills are covered by what is in Science right now.

Is the idea.

 

[AndrewW]

There is a degree of only having skills that will be used during the game. Not going to be a great call for archaeologists on the Moon or Mars, and related skills are covered by what is in Science right now.

Is the idea.

But what if an ancients site is found on the moon by the explorers?

 

[Sigtrygg]

You mean:

 

[CordwainerFish]

But what if an ancients site is found on the moon by the explorers?

That's as unlikely as finding a bunch of desperado Nazis up there.

Here's one for you, Lt. Heinlein.

 

[Condottiere]

Who is The Watcher?

...and why is he so important? Billions of years ago, the technologically-advanced extraterrestrial race known as the Watchers decided it was their duty to help the universe's less advanced races.

 

[rinku]

Mmmm. History, or social sciences could very well come up in a colony though. Anything people related (Economics, Sociology, Political Science, Psychology etc). The way it's framed, you appear to need to be a Psychologist to have any skill at Psychology.

I'm good with those being done using Profession, but it would be nice to have it stated, especially since it IS a change from core Traveller and people are going to keep asking that question.

Paleontology is potentially going to come up, maybe on Mars, but I guess that would fall under Planetary and Life.

 

[rinku]

For what it's worth, I did a skill compare between CRB22 and Pioneer preview:

Admin (same)

Advocate (same)

Animals* (omitted)

Art* (Journalism is Media; others are Profession)

Astrogation (Renamed as Orbital Mechanics)

Athletics* (same)

Broker (omitted)

Carouse (Part of Charm)

Charm (Combines the Traveller skills of Carouse, Diplomat and Persuade)

Combat (Combines the Traveller combat skills; Guns, Melee and Unarmed)

Computers (Former Electronics Specialty)

Deception (same)

Diplomat (Part of Charm)

Drive* (Some vehicles use Heavy Equipment. Otherwise omitted)

Electronics* (Split into the old three skills of Electronics. Computer and Remote Ops. Sensors use Engineer (Electrical))

Electronics (New version of the Traveller skill of the same name; Mechanic for Electrical gear)

Engineer* (Different specialties more suitable to the setting: Aerospace, Electrical, Mechanical)

Explosives (same)

Flyer* (Use Pilot)

Gambler (omitted)

Gunner (omitted)

Gun Combat* (Gun specialty of Combat)

Heavy Equipment (New skill covering operating big stuff)

Hvy Weapons* (Gun Specialty of Combat; Heavy Equipment for large vehicle mounted weapons)

Investigate (same)

Jack of all Trades (same)

Language* (same)

Leadership (same)

Mechanic (In Pioneer only covers mechanical equipment, not electronic)

Media (New skill that covers Journalism and some Persuade situations)

Medic (same)

Melee* (Melee and Unarmed specialties of Combat)

Navigation (same)

Persuade (Part of Charm)

Pilot* (No specialties but complexity of vehicle affects skill use)

Profession* (same but now includes some Traveller skills)

Recon (Renamed as Perception)

Science* (Only three specialties: Physics, Planetary and Life)

Seafarer* (omitted)

Stealth (same)

Steward (omitted)

Streetwise (same)

Survival (same)

Tactics* (omitted)

Vacc Suit (Renamed as Space Suit)

Zero-G (New skill)

 

[rinku]

I guess most of the omitted skills that might occasionally come up, like Animal or Broker, can indeed be covered with Profession. Drive seems like it might be needed... but Heavy Equipment covers things bigger than a buggy or car, and I guess only professional drivers (or amateurs who are at that level of skill) are likely to be making control rolls. It's probably fair to assume all characters have zero skill in operating cars if they want it. No driving skill at all sounds more like a character quirk, like illiteracy. Also, self driving vehicles may be assumed by the setting.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Mmmm. History, or social sciences could very well come up in a colony though.

Bet you Zeon Zum Deikun had both.

 

[shirgall]

Leadership is not the same, as I pointed out in the different thread, but I suspect it may evolve. Because both Traveller and Pioneer state "A x with a Profession skill is trained in producing useful goods or services" there's probably going to be some leeway with adding more professions, especially for passengers.

The change to make Electronics the "sparky" form of Mechanic, cutting away Computer and Remote Ops... but putting Comms and Sensors in Engineer/Electrical might be limiting.

I have always tried to categorize skills into categories: operating/using, troubleshooting/repairing, engineering/making, and science/theory. Fine if we put fixing into Electronics, and making into Engineer, and inventing into Science... but we still need to run radios, video feeds, satellite feeds, sensors, etc.

 

[rinku]

There may also be a consideration as to Pioneer's full scope. HOW far into colony development is it intended to go? Just early development, or getting into terraforming Mars era? Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars books deal with the entire gamut of that, but the social and political angles are important throughout.

The skills that matter for dealing with a few dozen individuals will differ from those dealing with thousands or millions... but also, what about back on Earth? Is EVERY Pioneer game going to be in space? I'd hate it to limit itself that much, even if an Earth sourcebook might be needed.

But unlike Traveller, we won't need a complete rundown on Earth. Mostly we can just look stuff up and adjust modern day to a few decades later.

From the look of it too, Pioneer appears to be a fairly robust system for any late 20th or early 21st century scenario, so a bit of breadth in the core rules might go well.

Espionage, small wars, political campaigns, Earth based adventuring (some of the techbros do like setting records), sporting events (drama at the 2040 Olympics!!!), even a campaign based on a touring performer could work (Classic Traveller had that John M Ford Road Show adventure.)

Doing Pioneer in the past is also possible. Cold War space race.

 

[rinku]

Leadership is not the same, as I pointed out in the different thread, but I suspect it may evolve. Because both Traveller and Pioneer state "A x with a Profession skill is trained in producing useful goods or services" there's probably going to be some leeway with adding more professions, especially for passengers.

I'm really just distinguishing between skill list structure - such as specialties and so on. Actual game mechanic differences are to be expected, and Leadership in both games is still used for the same things.

The change to make Electronics the "sparky" form of Mechanic, cutting away Computer and Remote Ops... but putting Comms and Sensors in Engineer/Electrical might be limiting.

I think reverting to the older division of Electronics, Mechanics and Computer makes some sense, since it appears the Mongoose 2nd edition REASON to redefine Electonics and Mechanical was mostly because of what those mean in a far future context. By TL10+ ALL of the gear is electromechanical and one repair skill makes more sense than two. Mechanic got that job, and Electronics became the equipment operation skill; and because of high technology the gear does most of the actual doing. It's mostly about what skills qualify to have specialties because of domain overlap.

Specifically in regards to Comms... civilian communications really isn't a skill in this setting. A Professional skill at best, if you have someone like a communications network operator, but that's definitely getting into Engineering (electrical) territory. The same goes for astronauts contacting mission control, or trying to connect to a foreign base... no one is likely to be employed JUST to be Uhura. But if they are, Profession (Radio Operator) will do.

But of course ANY group might choose to use CRB definitions and specialties if that is their preference. It's probably less work than converting between 1st and 2nd edition Mongoose Traveller.

 

[shirgall]

Listening to the radio is one thing, but two/way communications with radio and video and potentially multiple channels and relays. Throw in using physical networking and Wifi. I can see a heroic comm operator using the satellite cloud as a relay for a message in an unusual way. That's not in the domain your typical person wandering around at TL7 in space.

I don't want skill proliferation without a need, but I can see a lot of missions that would need comms skill. Sensors are perhaps not like Traveller, but in a similar vein "telemetry" with technological space objects could be. What could that thing be? How far away is it? Where is it going?

 

[rinku]

Keep in mind that in Traveller you can sometimes use any of several skills for a task, depending on context. Someone with Profession (Radar operator) OR Engineering (Electrical) would get their skill bonus for many tasks. Certainly both would have a deep understanding of channels and relays and operating the hardware.

Interpreting the data might fall under Orbital Mechanics or Science (Physics).

 

[shirgall]

Yeah, I get you, like I said I don't want a skills explosion any more than others, but I can see it argued. One could argue against radar operator though, since it really isn't that accessible a product or service. This is why it is funny to me that "Roughneck" is listed as an example profession and not folded into use of "Heavy Equipment". There's a ton of arguable positions either way on a ton of things.

 

[shirgall]

I note for the record that there is a likely an evolution of both skills and machinery due to changing conditions in "TRL Epochs".

 

[rinku]

Yep.

I would suggest also, in regards to my OP, that anyone that wants to can just add Social to the Science specialities. And include or exclude disciplines to their own taste. You might, for example, actually want to exclude Archaeology and History, but include Psychology and Economics. The latter might be seen in lower regards by some than the former, but they at least fall under "predictive disciplines", if that is what you require of a science.

But I guess the acid test in game terms is "would it be reasonable for these domains to overlap enough to be specialties of each other"?

That is, is it reasonable for a Physicist or Mathematician to avoid the unskilled penalty if they need to do Geology or Chemistry?

Reframing that, is it reasonable for a Biologist or Astronomer to avoid the unskilled penalty when doing History?

 

[shirgall]

Archeology is gonna be useful when you find those giant bones and regolith tools in a cave on the moon. (Look up the original story and cover of the book, "Inherit the Stars" by James P. Hogan)...

 

[rinku]

Or when you find that Monolith.