Opportunistic sacrifice and Defensive blast combined
- Thread starter afro-slav
- Start date
afro-slav said:
It's your game, so see this as good-intented advice: DB is a sort of emergency action, when your scholar is surrounded by overwhelming opponents. It is not very "poetic" to use DB as a cheap possibilty to "refuel" his Power Points pool - it looks to me as a kind of D&D powergaming.
There was a discussion abouth this topic on this forum a few weeks ago; maybe you want to look at it.
René said:
Since I don't wanna go resurrect an old thread, lemme share our group's views on sorcery in the Hyborian Age.
I think we can all agree that sorcery is all about the primacy of the Self at the expense of the external. From that premise, it can be surmised that magic is an externalization of the sorcerer's will; since everyone's psychological universe is egocentric (i.e., you are the center of your own Universe), it follows that your will/awareness will be focused most strongly on your the space closest to you...which supports the Defensive Blast rule. It may not be 'poetic' (but then what sorcerer in Howard ever aspired to write hexameter? its about POWER! ), but it does fit the selfish, ego-defined worldviews required by Hyborian sorcery. The thing we didn't like was the 'fire' descriptor, but thats a matter of taste, and easily changed.
Once your scholar gains Opp Sacrifice, the real power trip begins (if your scholars have any idea what they are doing, that is...)
Opportunistic sacrifice + Immortality style = big fun for sorcerers
I'll have to look and see if the sorcerer in my group has Opportunistic Sacrifice. He loves to torture and carve up helpless folk, but it's as much 'his thing' as game mechanics. But as far as mechanics go, he's used it in a totally powergaming sense: I think the first time he used it as intended (to save his hurt hide) was the last game (ape men were closing in for the kill) and he did over 20 die in damage.
If Akriphon is anything like other players' scholars, he's on a power trip, is ego-centric, he's overtly menacing anyone he thinks he can intimidate, and he'll ritually slay anyone he can get his hands on. Without the book to look at (at work on lunchtime), I'd say that Opportunistic Sacrifice would benefit from a defensive blast.
Once again (have written about DB in several threads) I don't like it personally except as a game balance feature to keep PCs from snuffing it, but as such it can and has been abused by power-gamers.
If Akriphon is anything like other players' scholars, he's on a power trip, is ego-centric, he's overtly menacing anyone he thinks he can intimidate, and he'll ritually slay anyone he can get his hands on. Without the book to look at (at work on lunchtime), I'd say that Opportunistic Sacrifice would benefit from a defensive blast.
Once again (have written about DB in several threads) I don't like it personally except as a game balance feature to keep PCs from snuffing it, but as such it can and has been abused by power-gamers.
Sutek
Mongoose
Okay. I looked it up, and looked it up good. (lol)
Answer is "yes".
Reason why is in the text. Now I'll admit up front that this is my interpretation of things, but I think it's pretty sound.
First off, Opportunistic Sacrifice functions by granting the "benfits of the Ritual Sacrifice feat any time" and enemy is slain by the sorcerer. The "normal" parameter even lists what would nbormally have to be the case to gain those benefits: a helpless victime and a coup de grace attempt. Normally you have to do that, but if you have OppSacrifice, you do not. The benefits (1PP per 4HP eliminated) are gained no matter how they die, as you invoke the name of your dark gods in that instant, not needing to ritualistic drive a dagger into your victim's heart.
Now, the "up side" to the mere mortals out there is that the target must be slain]/i]. In a coup de grace, the victim makes a FORT save or dies, regardless of remaining HP (and in the case of a Ritual Sacrifice they make that save at -2). That instandtly drops them to -10HP, where I assume a Fat Point could be spent to make a Left For Dead check, but that's probably a whole other debate right there. -10HP is dead, slain, so with a Defensive Blast or any other attack type that might "slay" opponents, they have to end up slain, dead, to gain the benefits of the Sacrifice, and that means -10HP. If the blast merely reduces them to -1 or -4 or -9 HP, the Opportunistic Sacrifice wouldn't work by the strictest interpretation of what it is to be "slain" in the Conan RPG.
See, what OppSacrifice lets you bypass is the need to make a coup de grace on your victim; that necessity is waived. However, they still must be dead, totally, by any other means ("whether by magic, melee or ranged attacks." -pg115) in order to suck up their life as PP afterwards.
Does that sound right?
Answer is "yes".
Reason why is in the text. Now I'll admit up front that this is my interpretation of things, but I think it's pretty sound.
First off, Opportunistic Sacrifice functions by granting the "benfits of the Ritual Sacrifice feat any time" and enemy is slain by the sorcerer. The "normal" parameter even lists what would nbormally have to be the case to gain those benefits: a helpless victime and a coup de grace attempt. Normally you have to do that, but if you have OppSacrifice, you do not. The benefits (1PP per 4HP eliminated) are gained no matter how they die, as you invoke the name of your dark gods in that instant, not needing to ritualistic drive a dagger into your victim's heart.
Now, the "up side" to the mere mortals out there is that the target must be slain]/i]. In a coup de grace, the victim makes a FORT save or dies, regardless of remaining HP (and in the case of a Ritual Sacrifice they make that save at -2). That instandtly drops them to -10HP, where I assume a Fat Point could be spent to make a Left For Dead check, but that's probably a whole other debate right there. -10HP is dead, slain, so with a Defensive Blast or any other attack type that might "slay" opponents, they have to end up slain, dead, to gain the benefits of the Sacrifice, and that means -10HP. If the blast merely reduces them to -1 or -4 or -9 HP, the Opportunistic Sacrifice wouldn't work by the strictest interpretation of what it is to be "slain" in the Conan RPG.
See, what OppSacrifice lets you bypass is the need to make a coup de grace on your victim; that necessity is waived. However, they still must be dead, totally, by any other means ("whether by magic, melee or ranged attacks." -pg115) in order to suck up their life as PP afterwards.
Does that sound right?
Sutek said:
Consider the Massive Damage rule, and DB is powergaming par excellence.
Let's take a look at the official adventure The Ruins of Atlaia from Tales of the Black Kingdoms: on p.39 there are 4 3rd level Stygian Temple Guardians of the Soldier class. If the Scholar PC (5th level as suggested by the author) is a prudent one, he approaches them openly and asks to be escorted to their leader - when they do this - BANG - DB + Massive Damage + probably all slain and a Scholar with more Power Points than before!
Applicate this example to your own adventures and you'll see that DB gives the intelligent Scholar PC the overkill capacity and the potential to ruin whole plots singlehandedly.
A 10th level Scholar will probalby slay all demons from the core book without a problem.
Sutek
Mongoose
No can do. A 10th Level Scholar has at most (barring Feats, because I really don't know them that thuroughly) base 4+ maybe 6 PP; total 10. That would be 10d6 for the DB, averaging 35pts of damage. Now, yes, that triggers Massive Damage, but re-read those rules. The FORT DC for that average damage would be 10+18, or DC28 which will be impossible for any Demon (FORT +6 or +7 usually) to save, even on a maximum d20 roll. Any Demons in range die and the Sorcerer consumes thier PP. He could gain as much as 18PP from a Bodiless Slimer or 13PP from a Black Fiend...
...but...
...Bodiless Slimers are invisible, so there's no telling where they really are or how many ther are of them. Black Fiends are immune to all physical damage except silver and fire attacks )which the DB is considered to be) but with high REF saves, the demons might make the save versus the blast (DC5+d20 for a maximum of 25 for a 10th vlvl Scholar - a Child of the Dark need only roll an 11) taking only half damage and not incurring enough to be killed outright.
Then it's thier turn...
...but...
...Bodiless Slimers are invisible, so there's no telling where they really are or how many ther are of them. Black Fiends are immune to all physical damage except silver and fire attacks )which the DB is considered to be) but with high REF saves, the demons might make the save versus the blast (DC5+d20 for a maximum of 25 for a 10th vlvl Scholar - a Child of the Dark need only roll an 11) taking only half damage and not incurring enough to be killed outright.
Then it's thier turn...
Sutek: Even an "average" 10th-level sorcerer should have 8-10 BPP (7 + Wis mod), and she could take the Spawn of Dagoth Hill feat for +4 BPPs. Remember that a 10th-level sorcerer has x3 Maximum PPs. This means that even an "average" non-Spawn sorcerer could conceivably unleash a 30d6 defensive blast. And keep in mind that the sorcerer can spend 1 Fate Point on a Mighty Blow to deal maximum damage. Also, the DC to save for half is Fortitude 1d20 + 5 + Cha mod, not Reflex 1d20 + 5.
Sutek
Mongoose
It might be able to get as high as 30d6, but only if a GM lets it. Remember the whole thing too about Free Actions: there's a reasonable limit to what can actually be done for free.
The DB is intended to be a "finishing move" it's supposed to kill everything within 10 feet and is there to represent the stories well in addition to providing Sorcerers thier "kick in the teeth" move. Somone trying to do it every turn would be pushing the limit of what is reasonable, not to mention the fact that they'd be sucking up Corruption like crazy.
The DB is intended to be a "finishing move" it's supposed to kill everything within 10 feet and is there to represent the stories well in addition to providing Sorcerers thier "kick in the teeth" move. Somone trying to do it every turn would be pushing the limit of what is reasonable, not to mention the fact that they'd be sucking up Corruption like crazy.
Sutek said:
Well, this seems to get a question of ideology. For me DB isn't intented to be a "finishing move" including easy refueling of PPs, but a desperate last resort-device that robs the scholar of all his PPs (IMHO indicated in AE p.185: "all the sorcerer's pp are expended." Yes I know, there is nothing in the rules about not-refueling via Opportunistic Sacrifice, but here it comes to ideology again - you view it as a legitime method, I see it as powergaming a la D&D).
But I'm not a missionary :wink:
Sutek: I hope I don't come across as too argumentative here, but I strongly doubt the intention of the rule that limits number of free actions in a round is to give the DM a way to arbitrarily deny free action player abilities. And according to the rules, there is no chance of gaining any Corruption just by using defensive blast and Opportunistic Sacrifice.
As for the 30d6 and the DM allowing it, there are several ways of gaining lots of PPs. I suppose the DM could somehow deny all of them because a player may or may not spend the PPs on a defensive blast, but this would feel grossly unfair to many players. I'll mention a few good ways to gain a lot of PPs:
1. The Greater Meditation (SoS) feat allows you to build up a ton of PPs by meditating 1-3 hours.
2. The Debaucher (SoS) feat allows you to pile up PPs after spending a couple of hours with a prostitute or other "vice-companion", but this feat isn't really available until 12th level.
3. Instant-kill sorcerer abilities (Dread Serpent, Death Touch, defensive blast) combined with Opportunistic Sacrifice used on enemies earlier that day can give you close to Maximum PPs.
4. Ask the warriors to deal nonlethal damage to weak enemies. Then use Energy Drain + Ritual Sacrifice on them. This will give you 1d4 + (1/4 hit points) PPs per victim. Even in battles where the warriors deal lethal damage there will sometimes be opportunities to Energy Drain downed enemies.
5. 1 basement + 10 chained slaves or animals + 1 1st-level acolyte will allow you to siphon an average of 25 PPs several times a day.
As for the 30d6 and the DM allowing it, there are several ways of gaining lots of PPs. I suppose the DM could somehow deny all of them because a player may or may not spend the PPs on a defensive blast, but this would feel grossly unfair to many players. I'll mention a few good ways to gain a lot of PPs:
1. The Greater Meditation (SoS) feat allows you to build up a ton of PPs by meditating 1-3 hours.
2. The Debaucher (SoS) feat allows you to pile up PPs after spending a couple of hours with a prostitute or other "vice-companion", but this feat isn't really available until 12th level.
3. Instant-kill sorcerer abilities (Dread Serpent, Death Touch, defensive blast) combined with Opportunistic Sacrifice used on enemies earlier that day can give you close to Maximum PPs.
4. Ask the warriors to deal nonlethal damage to weak enemies. Then use Energy Drain + Ritual Sacrifice on them. This will give you 1d4 + (1/4 hit points) PPs per victim. Even in battles where the warriors deal lethal damage there will sometimes be opportunities to Energy Drain downed enemies.
5. 1 basement + 10 chained slaves or animals + 1 1st-level acolyte will allow you to siphon an average of 25 PPs several times a day.
René said:
I agree with you, and think that in general we should look at "the intent of the law", rather than "the letter of the law" (boo hiss to all you powergamers/rules-lawyers! :wink: ).
I'd like to remind people that I posted a variant rule, called Desperate Blast, a while ago. It's essentially the same thing, except it can only be used once per day, and provides some variety as to the actual effect (I never liked the fire-blast effect of DB, thinking it too flashy).
http://hyboria.xoth.net/rules/optional_rules.htm
This variant is a (slight) nerfing of the scholar class, of course, so consider making up for it in other ways.
- thulsa
Sutek
Mongoose
Turim said:
Oh, I don't think you're being argumentative as I'm settling down squarely on both sides of the fence here (lol). I find it horendously powerful and easily abused, but can find no solid rule-based reason to deny someone doing it. I mean, Free Actions are just that, free. They take no physical exertion and no real movement and can be performed as many at a time in a single round as seems reasonable. It's left deliberately vague to allow for the other sorts of free actions making GMs decide what is reasonable or not. Where things get squirley with regards to Defensive Blast is that it can be used as an AoO, essentially allowing a Sorcerer with a high initiative to pop off a DB in one round and then, after soaking up PP with Opp. Sacrifice, do one (or more) again as a reactive blast. This loop is infinite. That's a flaw.
The Corruption thing stems from (A) me liking the Corruption rules a lot and (B) on page 189 it says that Corruption can be obtained by witnessing/being a party to certain "sorcerous practices", forcing the save in the same way as encoutering a demon or cursed object.
I haven't looked at thulsa's "Desperate Blast" yet, but I will. If I were to house-rule it, I'd simply suggest the following equation to augment DB:
- DB # of d6 burned > Current CON: character is Disabled; may still use Opp.Sacrifice, but is still at 0HP. Another attempt will drop the character to -10HP. LFD save allowed.
- DB # of d6 burned < or = Current CON: character is Staggered if DC damage dealt is failed; may still use Opp.Sacrifice, but is still at 0HP as far as non-lethal damage rules are concerned. Another attempt will have the same result as above.
Of course the easier solutions wouild be (A) have DB provoke and AoO or (B) just use GM providence and suggest that there's too much going on to fire off more than one blast per round, regardless of it being a free action. The latter is the easy way, but liable to tick more poeople off because it's not supported anywhere, but the second is totally within the bounds of the rules for free actions. It's ultimately up to the GM to decide what is "reasonable".
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
And of course you can just use the "Final Strike" option I created instead of Defensive Blast. [It's posted in "Raven's Rules of Sorcery" but I can reprint here if people want to see it] A sorcerer who uses that option [and survives] is at zero PP and unconscious so using it as an offesnive ability is not gonna be a common thing. It is used mostly as a final 'f*** you' by the sorcerer you just mortally wounded. 8)
Raven
Raven
