Opinions on custom ship building

[zero]

I know a few people here build their own custom ships to use in their games, such as DFW and their themed models.

Anyway, after flying in the 100dton J2 Stubby-class I created for a while now, I wonder about building something new. Also I have High Guard arriving soon (finally ordered it) so I'll have more scope this time

I was thinking of building a 200dton ship with a much beefier Engineering section to have more options available when planet-hopping (basically J3+, so C-class+), a bank of low berths for any passengers to reduce costs, and a bigger cargo hold possibly for more freight

Basically another basic merchant model but at a grander scale with enough profits to berth at A-class worlds, something that Terra would be proud of.

A big dream? Yeah, probably :lol:
Well, I only really have the experience of building one ship, my little Stubby merchant ship, so I was wondering what tips the more experienced could give and also some nice tips to max out profits would also be cool

At some point I will also be posting the statblock of the Stubby for use in everyone's games too :wink:

 

[barnest2]

I'll design it once it's done
Let me be your engineer!!!

Also, the design process shouldn't be that different. Just a bigger ship.

 

[DFW]

Well, I only really have the experience of building one ship, my little Stubby merchant ship, so I was wondering what tips the more experienced could give and also some nice tips to max out profits would also be cool

It is difficult to make a 200t J3 that would be profitable. Low berths don't bring in enough money for the tonnage they take up.

J3 High passage (4 tons) = 20k = 5k/ton
J3 Mid Passage (4 tons) = 10k = 2.5k/ton
J3 Low passage (1/2 ton) = 1.4k = 2.8k/ton
Minus life support & initial purchase of staterooms or lowberth.

J3 Freight = 1.4k per ton. No purchase or ongoing price.

So, High passage & Freight/cargo is best for a J3 200 ton. When you build the ship use the HG rules I highlighted on the 200t Econo model. (Page 52)

 

[SSWarlock]

...so I was wondering what tips the more experienced could give and also some nice tips to max out profits would also be cool

Well..as an ethically flexible Vargr once told me, "One sentient's vice is another sentient's profit margin." :wink:

 

[zero]

Barnest, feel free to make a design and/or deckplan as soon as I get a ship design done :wink:

Ive yet to set a Jump capacity on the ship, but DFW, your advice is onboard.

After totalling up lowberths and High Passages, its only economical for a J1 ship to take 8 lowberths rather than a single High Passage.

However, remember Mail is always a good thing to carry at 25k for 5dtons, thats a 5k per ton payment. Thats the best profit that can be mustered for a J3 capable ship, even High Passage pays 4.5k per ton at that level! The con being as it has so much data in the drum, it would have a limit of one drum oer world.

As for Freight, we have 4k payment for 4dtons per parsec, 4.8k for the same at J2, (5.6k on J3). Freight maxes out at 2k per dton at J6. So even a Mid Passage at J3 (1k at J1, 4k at J2, 8k at J3 -or 2k per ton at J3, where freight at J3 would pay less) will beat Freight.
Interesting... seems Middle Passage would be a good profiting venture as the main trouble with High Passage is finding them in the first place :lol:

So, we have learnt that profit is dependant on the Jump Rating of the ship, but for a J3 capable ship, basing possible profits to calculate a monthly payment, a mix of Mail and Mid Passage customers would be most economic. That way finding High Passages as a priority adds a definite profit-margin to keep the traders afloat.
Filling space with adequate Fuel tanks and staterooms would be the best, with a small 5dton cargo hold for the Mail.

Of course I'll see what High Guard has to offer, but I think cracking the system like this, I finally have the numbers down to make a profitable ship, even at a higher J-Rating! It may not be the best armed or armoured, but a nice passenger ship would be a pretty cool step to have a Sol subsector starting game 8)

 

[DFW]

J-3 is as high as you get while still having a (small) chance at profitability. Mail isn't at all, a guaranteed thing. Even if so, 25k is small change once you get >than J3.

 

[zero]

True, going over numbers and even if there is a profit to be had in staterooms, they still are half a MCr to put one in.
I can see it'll be a long mathematical conundrum, checking the ship payment with a stateroom with the profit-margin, then adding a new stateroom and seeing if there is still a profit and by how much.

Still, calculating a profit margin based on Mid Passages and then trying to get as many High Passages in instead will boost the profit-margin to get the all-important A-class Port berthing costs, at least I would hope. Thats the scary thing with Trav, its that nothing goes according plan eventually.

Also might be playing with making the ship even more beefy in the Engineering department, its a balance as more space in Engineering means less space for hauling stuff and therefore being able to pay for good Engineering in the first place.

Its gonna be a chore, but the resulting ship should be bloody awesome!

 

[DFW]

Still, calculating a profit margin based on Mid Passages and then trying to get as many High Passages in instead will boost the profit-margin to get the all-important A-class Port berthing costs, at least I would hope.

There's nothing important about A- class berthing. You should never pay for that unless there is no lesser berthing available. Parking orbit can be better if you are at an "Up" facility.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

...so I was wondering what tips the more experienced could give and also some nice tips to max out profits would also be cool

Well..as an ethically flexible Vargr once told me, "One sentient's vice is another sentient's profit margin." :wink:

Agreed, you will probably need a more "exciting" business plan than hauling freight and passengers. The big problem is the costs required to build a J3 and the amount of dt (over 30%) you have to give over to fuel. On a 200t ship you don't have much left.

Obviously, with larger ships there would be a certain amount of economy of scale.

At the most basic, up-grading a Far Trader to J3, you will need a bigger J-drive, +10 tons, +10MCr, P-Plant, +3 tons, +8MCr and give up another 20dt for fuel. So your ship is now only able to shift 64-33=31 tons of cargo, and costs 51.385 + 18 + 62.385MCr.

Oh, and you need a better computer, probably a Model 2/bis, another 210,000 Cr hardware and 200,000Cr software.

Abandone legit trade and find another way to keep the vessel space worthy :lol:

Egil

 

[zero]

As my gf pointed out to me, I also didnt really take into account the costs of the staterooms versus lowberth costs.
Lowberths are nice and cheap (50,000 creds compared to 500,000) so more can fit in, but they dont pay well at all at higher Jump Ratings compared to Staterooms, but you can get 10 lowberths in a ship for the price of one stateroom.
J1 is a turnout of 10 berths = 19k per month compared to a single stateroom 4k Mid Passage.
Its 23k for lows at J2, 10k for Mid at J2. At J3; 27k to 16k difference shows lowberths can be a nice profit in a compared initial buying view (yes, you got 5 dtons of lowberths compared to 4 dtons for a stateroom, but a 9k difference at J3 is not to be sniffed at).

Per dton, lowberth profits may be a little small, but a vast number can be packed into a small space (more or less...). I'd say keep staterooms for the PCs and have them bunk together and have passengers go in lowberths.

 

[DFW]

Per dton, lowberth profits may be a little small, but a vast number can be packed into a small space (more or less...). I'd say keep staterooms for the PCs and have them bunk together and have passengers go in lowberths.

On a J3, you won't make it financially hauling mid & low passengers.

 

[zero]

Well, Ive yet to total any ships and costs, I'm just running some numbers here, but Ive made a profit-making J2 ship (my faithful Stubby-class merchant ship), so you could say a J3 ship is my next challenge.

About berthing costs, I guess you could land on a planet that has no contraband on Travellers due to their government. Of course, you could land on a Traveller-contraband world without reporting it to the starport or authorities, but it wouldnt be a good idea to be caught (especially on a high law-level world: 100+ tons of contraband would be pretty bad...) :roll:

 

[DFW]

About berthing costs, I guess you could land on a planet that has no contraband on Travellers due to their government. Of course, you could land on a Traveller-contraband world without reporting it to the starport or authorities, but it wouldnt be a good idea to be caught (especially on a high law-level world: 100+ tons of contraband would be pretty bad...) :roll:

You're not getting the magnitude of it. With a class A port you are going to have an "Up" portion. You are going to have subsidiary ports that aren't part of the main. At least in the overwhelming % of worlds that are large enough to have an "A" port.

Imagine Earth (not balkanized) at TL 15. There isn't just one star port where goods are delivered... There is 5-6 at least. Not all class A.

 

[far-trader]

About berthing costs, I guess you could land on a planet that has no contraband on Travellers due to their government. Of course, you could land on a Traveller-contraband world without reporting it to the starport or authorities, but it wouldnt be a good idea to be caught (especially on a high law-level world: 100+ tons of contraband would be pretty bad...) :roll:

You're not getting the magnitude of it. With a class A port you are going to have an "Up" portion. You are going to have subsidiary ports that aren't part of the main. At least in the overwhelming % of worlds that are large enough to have an "A" port.

BUT, that is an interesting bit of side topic

If a mainworld is listed as Class A are your interstellar travellers allowed to land anywhere else? Trade anywhere else? Buy their supplies and fuel anywhere else?

In my opinion, and in MTU, in a word, no. With more words... not legally at least... not without obtaining special permits anyway... possibly involving bribes... or...

I think that's what zero is seeing as his vision as well.

Imagine Earth (not balkanized) at TL 15. There IS just one STARPORT where INTERSTELLAR goods are delivered... There ARE 5-6 SPACEPORTS at least... that handle intersystem trade and travel. They are generally off limits to interstellar contact though. For several reasons.

Even in the Imperium it is the space between the stars (and including the ONE starport on the ONE mainworld) that they rule. The rest (of the mainworld, its spaceports, and all other worlds in the system and their spaceports) is under the authority of the systme government.

 

[phavoc]

A class A starport for any world will have some sort of accompanying highport with it. The larger ships cannot land easily or at all at a starport and therefore will dock at the orbital platform.

And as DFW said, a world, especially large and high-tech will have numerous starports. Only one will be designated as 'the' starport, and Imperial controlled to boot.

However you are going to have a wide-range of additional starports spread around the world, from A to X - though the commercial ones will most likely be C or D.

As for landing your ship on the world undetected, good luck with that! Traffic control for a TL-15 planet is gonna be satellite base and unless you can mask your descent and emissions, they are going to pick you up and put you on the traffic grid. An out-of-control starship is a dangerous thing, and they are going to do everything they can to ensure that ships go up, and down, according to very strict flight paths. Not to mention all the other grav vehicle traffic you are going to find out there.

 

[DFW]

In my opinion, and in MTU, in a word, no. With more words... not legally at least... not without obtaining special permits anyway... possibly involving bribes... or...

Logistically, that isn't logical for larger worlds. For a planet that is like N.K. or the former USSR, yes. Otherwise, not likely at all.

 

[AndrewW]

A class A starport for any world will have some sort of accompanying highport with it. The larger ships cannot land easily or at all at a starport and therefore will dock at the orbital platform.

Not always.

Most planets have only a DownPort, a landing zone on the ground accessible only by entering the atmosphere. Ships that cannot land at a DownPort are serviced by a fleet of shuttles and other smaller vessels.

 

[Chernobyl]

Well, I only really have the experience of building one ship, my little Stubby merchant ship, so I was wondering what tips the more experienced could give and also some nice tips to max out profits would also be cool

It is difficult to make a 200t J3 that would be profitable. Low berths don't bring in enough money for the tonnage they take up.

J3 High passage (4 tons) = 20k = 5k/ton
J3 Mid Passage (4 tons) = 10k = 2.5k/ton
J3 Low passage (1/2 ton) = 1.4k = 2.8k/ton
Minus life support & initial purchase of staterooms or lowberth.

J3 Freight = 1.4k per ton. No purchase or ongoing price.

So, High passage & Freight/cargo is best for a J3 200 ton. When you build the ship use the HG rules I highlighted on the 200t Econo model. (Page 52)

You're forgetting that staterooms can be made double occupancy, by increasing the monthly life support cost.
Life support cost is 2K/month/single berth, 3K/month double berth (core book, P 137)
High Berth:
Double stateroom, 4 tons, 1 Ton Luxuries, (2 high passage), 3K/month life support, jump-3 passage.
20,000 x2 2 high passage x2 trips/month = 80,000 Cr.
3K life support, 77,000 Cr
5 tons, 15,400 Cr/month/ton.
Middle Berths:
5 Double Staterooms, 20 tons, 2 tons luxuries (10 mid passage), 15K life support (5 double staterooms), jump-3 passage
10,000 x10 10 mid passage x2 trips/month = 200,000 Cr.
15K life support, 185,000 Cr.
22 Tons, 8409 Cr/Month/Ton.
Low Berth:
2 berths/ton, 1400 Cr jump-3 passage, 2 trips/month
2x1400x2 = 5600/Ton.
Freight:
An effect of "5" maxes the table and gets you 1000 Cr/Ton/Parsec, 3000 Cr/Ton for a jump 3 trip, so 6,000 Cr/Ton/Month.
Mail:
best negotiation you can get is 40,000 Cr/container, and is irrespective of distance - so thats 80,000 Cr for 2 trips, or 16,000 Cr./Ton.

There's too many variables in speculatitive trade to make any kind of assesment, but potentially you can make higher profit/ton in speculatitive trade if you have a good broker, and stick to TL8 ports with online suppliers.

But in reality, if you really want efficiency, you want to plan for the highest amount of high passage, so I designed a ship for all high passage (a 400 ton trader that was jump 2) but have to base the economics off of a mix of high, middle, and low passage, as well as trade. Its tough to wander this way though, Most often you want to find a pair of worlds where the sale modifiers work well in your favor.

 

[DFW]

You're forgetting that staterooms can be made double occupancy, by increasing the monthly life support cost.
Life support cost is 2K/month/single berth, 3K/month double berth (core book, P 137)

Correct however, unless a couple, no one in their right mind is going to pay High passage prices to get stuffed 2 to a stateroom.

 

[zero]

Again, atm I may be sticking with a stateroom for crew and probably go for the cheap lowberths for passengers.

As for the multiple Starports, I see nothing in the Core that says other ports at a lower class would be available. Logically on some worlds there would be, but with a centralised (more or less) galactic power there is probably going to be the one main, central, advertised starport for that world, especially if the population adds up to a small mining colony on a random moon or w/e.

Tbh, I'm with far-trader on that topic.

As for the Passage side-topic, Ive made posts in the relevant seperate thread.