One Book or Three Plus?

[vladthemad]

Alright, as this seemed to get missed in a different discussion, and I see it's still in the new version I feel a need to point this out again.

The revised edition of the core rule book on pages 2 & 4 states:

Traveller is a science fiction roleplaying game of the far future. A multitude of universes await players and you will find Traveller is capable of handling almost any kind of science fiction setting, from highly intricate cyberpunk worlds to campaigns spanning entire galaxies where mighty empires clash and suns explode.

If you have a favourite science fiction film or TV show, Traveller will be able to replicate it for you, bringing your best-loved futuristic moments to your tabletop.

Throughout this book, mention is made of other titles available in the Traveller series. Each of these books concentrates on a particular aspect of Traveller, allowing you to expand your game into new realms of play. However, none are vital or necessary to the game and are presented only for your continued enjoyment – you can explore a huge amount of the galaxy with this Core Rulebook alone!

As it has been noted that the rules for equipment, ship, and vehicle design will not be added to this book, these paragraphs should be changed as they are misleading. It should state explicitly that other books will be needed to get started in anything other than a 3rd Imperium campaign.

 

[TrippyHippy]

You don't need rules for equipment, vehicle or ship design to play Traveller. The material needed for a specific setting is dependent on the setting.

I don't agree that these statements are misleading.

I do note your comments on the other thread where you raised this point, using Star Wars examples. However, it ought to be pointed out that the Star Wars RPG themselves don't have starship creation rules - just stats for example craft. Things like equipment, vehicle and ship design are often a required taste in sci-fi gaming, and some gamers don't make use of them at all.

Now, I do like rules for these things, but I'm a hardcore Traveller fan. I'll probably be buying all the supplements regardless - and making good uses of them. However, for a casual newbie, the use of these things is not essential nor a priority to learn to play the game, as long as a decent range of spacecraft examples are provided.

That said, I do miss the 'completeness' of having ship design in the core rules - although the counterargument is that these rules are now complete within the High Guard book instead. That desire to want completeness is what drives the sales of extra books, of course.

 

[CosmicGamer]

My view is that the core rules should have everything for an adventure.

For a campaign, people may need to buy books that fit their needs. Aliens, setting, additional ship plans, ship building, additional equipment and so on.

 

[-Daniel-]

This is pure opinion I m about to share. But it is how I see the three paragraphs.

When I first read them I thought they were a combined thought and therefore felt they were not true. I can't create any setting I want from my favorite SciFi settings using what is found in the Beta CRB at this point.

But then I realized the only error is my assumption that the three are a single thought. Once you treat each of the three as separate thoughts they are not false.

P1: Traveller is a Sci-Fi role playing game. It can, as a complete system, create settings from "cyberpunk worlds to campaigns spanning entire galaxies". This is true.

P2: Using the complete Traveller system I can create any setting from any of my favorite movies, books, or TV shows.

P3: It is true, that while other books from the Traveller System are mentioned in this CRB, you do not need those to play out a game in the standard 3I setting and thus you can explore a huge amount of the galaxy with this Core Rulebook alone!

As three stand alone ideas, each paragraph is true. What I would suggest, to be sure others do not make the same error I did and combine the three and thus feel something is wrong, would be to edit slightly the three with similar thoughts to those I adding in the underlined areas. Make it crystal clear what is meant. That way there is no mistake in both intent and reality of the way the rules are being presented.

Just my .02

 

[TrippyHippy]

The qualifying phrases don't make good blurb, though. The phrases, as you have already said are true enough - and you don't need any other book other than core to play any type of science fiction game. You don't need equipment, vehicle and spaceship design chapters to make it true.

 

[Major Tom]

You'd have a tough time playing a Cyberpunk game with just the augmentations in the MRB. Hell, I'd say you'd have a tough time running a recognisably cyberpunk game even with the CSC given the 2k initial spend cap and the price of augmentations. Changing that line to something like, "from grunge tech traders to campaigns spanning entire galaxies where mighty empires clash and Suns explode."

 

[TrippyHippy]

I'd have thought all the basics of a cyberpunk were there because of the augments - although it may depend on how you intend to run the cyberpunk game I guess. To me, if you can plug into a computer system with a neural jack you are mostly there. You can certainly play 'high tech, low life' with the core rules alone.

 

[Major Tom]

To me, if you can plug into a computer system with a neural jack you are mostly there.

I would argue that a classic Cyberpunk game needs a lot more cyber than just jacks in your head. Eyeware, implanted weapons, specialist vehicle control systems and reaction enhancement all feature in classic cyberpunk literature. The MRB falls short of even the extremely low DNI bar though as the cheapest Waferjack costs 10,000cr and you can spend a maximum of 2,000cr on starting gear.

You can certainly play 'high tech, low life' with the core rules alone.

Hence the suggested change to grunge tech traders (yes, a fairly thinly veiled Firefly reference). I believe is a much more accurate statement and more likely to appeal to people who pick up Traveler to have a look through as they are much more likely to be looking for a scifi game than an alternative to Shadowrun or CP2020.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

As it has been noted that the rules for equipment, ship, and vehicle design will not be added to this book, these paragraphs should be changed as they are misleading. It should state explicitly that other books will be needed to get started in anything other than a 3rd Imperium campaign.

I've been playing Traveller wrong then, since I don't design stuff for my games.

 

[-Daniel-]

I've been playing Traveller wrong then, since I don't design stuff for my games.

Come on Shawn, you know that they are not saying you are wrong. It is just your games fit the 3I paradigm. And that is great for you and your games. But if I want to play particular other paradigms, the CRB will be missing some things and would require someone to make some things.

To me, this whole issue feels like it is being elevated to a level much higher than it needs to be. A couple of minor edits and the issue becomes moot.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

My ships are equipped with handwavium engines. If a player wants to do Star Trek, *poof* they now have warp drive.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I would argue that a classic Cyberpunk game needs a lot more cyber than just jacks in your head. Eyeware, implanted weapons, specialist vehicle control systems and reaction enhancement all feature in classic cyberpunk literature. The MRB falls short of even the extremely low DNI bar though as the cheapest Waferjack costs 10,000cr and you can spend a maximum of 2,000cr on starting gear.

Hence the suggested change to grunge tech traders (yes, a fairly thinly veiled Firefly reference). I believe is a much more accurate statement and more likely to appeal to people who pick up Traveler to have a look through as they are much more likely to be looking for a scifi game than an alternative to Shadowrun or CP2020.

The argument is one of semantics then. The phrase 'high tech, low life' is frequently the tagline of the cyberpunk genre. Moreover, 'cyberpunk' is a recognisable genre, whereas 'grunge tech traders' is not.

Honestly, I think we are getting too hung up on this issue. The new Traveller core is just as versatile in terms of working outside the 3I box as the last edition - it's just the ship design rules have been moved to the High Guard book in totality. The blurb is not misleading, nor inaccurate - but obviously the more books you buy, the more detail you get towards any particular genre or setting you wish to emulate. It doesn't disqualify the core rules as the place to start, however.

 

[-Daniel-]

Honestly, I think we are getting too hung up on this issue.

While I disagree that the core rule book can cover any setting as is, I agree with you 100% that this issue has been blown up much larger than it feels like it should be. Could Mongoose edit the into slightly to eliminate the issue, sure they could, but is this some evil conspiracy to fraud buyers? No it is not.

 

[Reynard]

The other highly popular RPG that's been around as long as Traveller has a core book with the necessary rules to play plus basic equipment, vehicles and opponents. It claims you can play without much more just from the one book but there are other books that expand play that add advanced rules on every subject involved in the game.

How does D&D successfully do that while Traveller players are demanding an all in one book that would match the size and price of T5 then complain the core book is too expensive? That's a lot of cake you want to eat to.

A lot of RPG systems are creating intro core books with the essentials and supplements to add details not everyone wants to pay for. I've always felt the world generation is essential because it creates the landscape other RPGs come nowhere near as vast. Other than that, the Traveller core books have always had a wide variety of ships, opponents (and the chargen does create the majority of Traveller opponents) and equipment to start many adventures just like D&D. Why should Traveller be different?

 

[FallingPhoenix]

To me, if you can plug into a computer system with a neural jack you are mostly there.

I would argue that a classic Cyberpunk game needs a lot more cyber than just jacks in your head. Eyeware, implanted weapons, specialist vehicle control systems and reaction enhancement all feature in classic cyberpunk literature. The MRB falls short of even the extremely low DNI bar though as the cheapest Waferjack costs 10,000cr and you can spend a maximum of 2,000cr on starting gear.

If I'm understanding the way they're trying to do this, that waferjack is not going to change price no matter how many books we buy.

If I were to do cyberpunk with the basic book, it would be simple to just add the 'Combat Implant' benefit one or more times to many or most of the careers' benefits tables. Would I be missing anything major for the genre if I did that?

I think I'd probably switch it with the Armour benefit, where that was available, leaving characters limited to the cheaper armours they can buy on their own...

 

[MongooseMatt]

If I'm understanding the way they're trying to do this, that waferjack is not going to change price no matter how many books we buy.

Yes! That is correct!

The one caveat: it is entirely possible that a setting book could change things.

 

[-Daniel-]

The one caveat: it is entirely possible that a setting book could change things.

Makes sense, for me, that has always been one of the jobs I expect from a sourcebook. To level set the various things based on that setting. So I want to make a sourcebook on modern early space flight, then the sourcebooks limits the TL etc. So a classic cyberpunk setting could adjust costs on augments to make them more common in that setting. 8)