Old Decipher Lord of the ring RPG

[treeplanter]

Anyone ever tried it?

Yesterday I was rereading the core rule book, and I must admit I'm pretty impressed with the mechanic. I think i'll work on an adaptation for Conan.

It's pretty similar to d20, with the following particularity:
attribute are Strenght, nimbleness, perception, vitality, wisdom and bearing wich range to 2 to 12 (-3 to +3 modifier)

- You roll 2d6 + X instead of d20 + X
- Hitpoint are Vitality + strenght modifier per health level. One you endured this number of damage, you go down one health level, wich give you penalities (kind of like Vampire).
- Instead of Class you get an Order, wich determine your starting skill and wich skill are cheaper for you to buy as you progress. You can also buy new Order with avancement.
- Nimbleness is added to hit and strenght to damage.
- Almost every weapon have damage output of 2d6 + X, wich is nice.
- Combat work with a number of action. Every combattant get 2 actions per round. Some special combat manoeuver cost 2 action like a power attack or a sweep. Dodging cost an action, meaning that combat against lot of opponents is especially hard.
- Instead of BAB you have an armed combat and a ranged combat skill.

Otherwise, skill are pretty much your standart d20 with some merging. However you can have skill specialities that add to your skill.
For exemple you can have +3 in acrobatic with a speciality in Jump, wich mean you'll jump at +5 effectivly.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Old? I wouldn't call that game very old... 5-6 years maybe?
Well, I've got most of these books, because I love LOTR. I never played it, but I know how to read a system. However, it's been some 5 years since I read it, so I don't know it by heart anymore.

I do remember that there were several things that bugged me about the system. It seems to be best suited for a storyteller-like gaming style where both Narrator (i.e.GM) and players will happily gloss over the rules whenever the current scene suggests a different course of action. So, judging from your previous posts on this forum, it may indeed be a good catch for you.

More precisely, the combat system for instance is pretty dangerous, considering the limits imposed on evading attacks, the wound system and absence of effective healing (there is virtually no magical healing, and natural healing is rather weak). By these rules, even a single Orc or Uruk is a damn tough enemy, let alone a whole horde of those buggers.
However, the GM chapter of the core book specifically advises the Narrator against letting the PCs come to harm (because of the lack of healing), and suggests throwing all those wound/health rules overboard and sort the oppoistion into "singles, doubles and triples" (that's the number of hits after which a mook will go down, regardless of attack roll, weapon type or damage roll).

In other words, the whole actual combat rule chapter is basically a waste of paper because, if you actually played by those rules, hardly a group of aspiring heroes would survive their first contact with a random band of orcs.

Hope that helps.

 

[treeplanter]

Yeah I noticed Uruk-Hai where kind of brutal but on the other end Uruk are meant to be brutal hehe

I tough if you adjust the opposition correctly combat should not be much of a problem. Like thug only having 1 health level (so they go down with one strike basicly), and you just add health level for greater threath. It is basicly the same as the mook rule you talk about (wich I did not saw in the book).
Another adjustment I would made for a Conan campain is either boosting natural healing and/or give less penality when you take wounds.

But i'll admit given the easiness Conan dispatch oppositions in the book maybe d20 is just more representative

 

[Clovenhoof]

It is basicly the same as the mook rule you talk about (wich I did not saw in the book).

Somewhere in Chapter 11 if I'm not mistaken. I can look it up some time these days, but don't have the books near me right now.

 

[Garet]

Here is the Hall of Fire webmagazine site. Pretty good stuff. i've only read the first 10 or so.

http://halloffire.org/

 

[Greg Smith]

The Coda system (used for Decipher's LotR and Star Trek) was almost like a further iteration of D&D 3e written with 2d6 in mind.

I only played the Star Trek version, but the rules worked pretty well.

Decipher produced some superb boxed sets of maps for LotR.

 

[Clovenhoof]

The nice thing about the LotR class system is that the special abilities of the Orders mostly are interesting and effective; most of them are "Hey, I want to have that". It's not like you have to scour through a list of a hundred abilities to find five or six good ones.

What's a bit strange for the D20 player is the grading of successes - it's not just success or failure, but you can have close, complete, outstanding and exceptional successes. It might be a good concept but as far as I can tell, a close success is usually worth nothing and you actually need a complete success to make a difference.

(Maybe I'll give the system a try some time this year, but it probably won't be enough for a full campaign)

Decipher produced some superb boxed sets of maps for LotR.

I've got a map set of that rpg but I'm not sure if it's the same you're talking about, as I wasn't too impressed. Number 1, these maps all come folded so you have those creaves that you'll never get out and look rather ugly if you pin the maps to the wall, Number 2, they just look pretty, but they don't contain a lot of information.
For a Middle Earth game, I definitely recommend the Middle Earth Atlas by Karen Wynn Fonstad, whose maps may not look so fancy but are much more informative and useful.

 

[Oly]

In other words, the whole actual combat rule chapter is basically a waste of paper because, if you actually played by those rules, hardly a group of aspiring heroes would survive their first contact with a random band of orcs.

One hit mook rules don’t necessarily invalidate a combat rule chapter, 7th Sea managed wonderfully with one hit mooks and then the proper detailed combat system for more important NPCs. It may not be to everyone’s gaming tastes but a lot of people are big fans of it.

However there is a difference between a game that introduces a mook rule because for dramatic purposes it wants characters to be able to wipe out henchmen and a game that has to introduce it because it’s combat system is so fundamentally dangerous that without it you’d drop in seconds. And it’s the latter point that I have heard people complaining of with the LOTR RPG.

That said I haven’t played it… But any game where meeting a bunch of ten Orc’s is sword fodder when meeting a single one is a dance with death doesn’t feel quite right to me…

Personally I’d have been reasonably keen to have seen mook rules in Conan, or at least interested to have seen them and decided whether to use them.

 

[flatscan]

That said I haven’t played it… But any game where meeting a bunch of ten Orc’s is sword fodder when meeting a single one is a dance with death doesn’t feel quite right to me…

That's how minions work in D&D 4e. They're there to make the combat more challenging, but go down with a single hit. If they didn't the party would be screwed.

Personally I’d have been reasonably keen to have seen mook rules in Conan, or at least interested to have seen them and decided whether to use them.

No need, as has been noted before the same result can be achieved with wielding a greatsword and Power Attack forcing a massive damage save. :wink:

 

[treeplanter]

I "tested" a bit the system yesterday

One standart orc don't seem too much of a challenge for a starting heroes, 2 is fine too (specially if you surprise them) but 3 or more seem nearly impossible as you start getting overwhelm by the number...

Base defense is 10 + nimbleness mod, so nimbleness seem VERY important, and i did not saw anything improving your base defense value. One of the change I would make for Conan is base defense would be 10 + Nimb or Strenght (if you're dodging or parrying).

As you progress I think you can probably get stronger in combat, but even a migthing warrior will still have hard time killing bunch of thug cause of the action rule. Even assuming they only have 1 health level, You'll kill one or 2, they attack you take a bunch of damage (weapon are kind of brutal), you kill 2-3 more but you start getting penality, take another bunch of hit. You'll eventually go down pretty fast. However this might make tactic figthing more interesting. Since you don't want to get surrounded, so you'll fight when retreating (kind of like when Boromir fight the orcs at the end of the fellowship), trying to get back-to back with someone, ect. Also this make stealthing your way or debate to avoid combat a good thing.

Advancement clearly need to be fixed in this system. the best way is establish an order of what you can buy with each advancement, so players don't buy just Stats or edge.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Tactical fighting will only get you so far. And anyway, as we're talking about using the system for a Conan conversion, it should also support a Conanesque plot development - which includes the heroes kicking ass, and not fleeing at the bare sight of opposition, or trying to talk it over rather than fight.

Mook rules: we're just discussing something similar in the Weapon Damage thread, so I'll try to keep it short here. Yes, there should be ways to kill mooks with one hit, but it should be a proper feature of the system, not some override like "He goes down after one hit no matter how many HP he normally should have".
The MD rule basically is a good idea but it should work for other weapons/styles than two handed power attack as well. I feel that the system could be fixed with some moderate tweaks, like granting the higher level character a damage bonus equal to the level difference.

Of course, strictly speaking D20 has always had a mook rule implemented: NPCs of level 1 or 2 have around 5-15 hit points... and if you don't want the mooks to hurt the PCs anyway...?

 

[flatscan]

I won't argue with you on that Clovenhoof. You are firmly of the mind that those things don't work. It's been my experience that they work great, especially in dealing with, for all intents and purposes, mooks. In my games the Borderer/Thief has forced MD saves with his Hyrkanian Bow + Sneak Attack. Doesn't happen as often, but really, it shouldn't. YMMV.

 

[treeplanter]

well, while in the book Conan is clearly able to kill ennemies by the score, I would not argue it is easy for him. In fact he often try to flee butchering his way threw opposition, and rarely come out unscratched.

 

[flatscan]

well, while in the book Conan is clearly able to kill ennemies by the score, I would not argue it is easy for him. In fact he often try to flee butchering his way threw opposition, and rarely come out unscratched.

Not sure who this is in response to. If it's in response to my post, neither the PCs in my game nor the PCs in a D&D 4e game have an easy time against their opponents. Minions in D&D 4e will usually get a couple hits in, and woe to the PC that gets ganged up on by one. In my game, even the heavily armored guys are generally hanging on by a thread by adventures end. Right now, they're worse off than usual in the Pictish Wilderness as the first major fight with Picts caught them off guard without their armor. It's a good thing the 2 barbars were able to greatsword/power attack their way through them or all 4 PCs would have likely fallen instead of just 2. :twisted:

 

[Clovenhoof]

You know, flatscan, I can do the math and I know the general odds of forcing MDS with different weapons, stats and character builds. Of course there are many ways to skin the cat, but the RAW vastly favour the Way of the Brute (2HPA) while for most other styles a MD is basically a lucky shot. As you said, an MD with a Bow is rare.

As for the one-hit minions, the reason why I'm skeptical of two parallel systems in the same game (proper damage calculation vs. mook rules) is that the player normally cannot know which kind of opposition he is facing right now. Unless you give all the minions purple scarves or, maybe more appropriate for a high-fantasy game, introduce special minion races (goblins, skaven, stuff like that). Otherwise you get these strange scenes as Oly described, like "10 Orcs? We can take em. One orc? Run!"


By the way, just out of curiosity, do you have any houserules for ranged sneak attacks, or do you by-the-book it and only apply SA when the attacker is invisible or the defender is flat-footed?

 

[flatscan]

You know, flatscan, I can do the math and I know the general odds of forcing MDS with different weapons, stats and character builds. Of course there are many ways to skin the cat, but the RAW vastly favour the Way of the Brute (2HPA) while for most other styles a MD is basically a lucky shot. As you said, an MD with a Bow is rare.

For the record, I did not intend my post to be sarcastic or antagonistic. I hope you didn't take it that way. I do, however, think it fits the Hyborian Age for big honking swords wielded by beefy barbarians to have a decent chance of chopping an opponent in two with one strike. Whereas a bow doing the same? Not so much.

As for the one-hit minions, the reason why I'm skeptical of two parallel systems in the same game (proper damage calculation vs. mook rules) is that the player normally cannot know which kind of opposition he is facing right now. Unless you give all the minions purple scarves or, maybe more appropriate for a high-fantasy game, introduce special minion races (goblins, skaven, stuff like that). Otherwise you get these strange scenes as Oly described, like "10 Orcs? We can take em. One orc? Run!"

Well, you don't know 'till you try. :wink: I've played 4e and I never ran into that situation. Basically, every encounter had a mixture of minions and regular NPC baddies. You didn't know which were which until after you'd hit 'em.

By the way, just out of curiosity, do you have any houserules for ranged sneak attacks, or do you by-the-book it and only apply SA when the attacker is invisible or the defender is flat-footed?

Nope. Only house rules I roll with are for Fate Points. The Borderer/Thief has the appropriate Dex + Ref + feats to ensure he goes first...most of the time.

 

[treeplanter]

sorry for the confusion I was responding to Cloven (we posted at the same time)

why just not doing that? just remove MD for PC and important villain.
Each time consecutive attack do 20 or more damage in a round, roll a MD roll.

But honestly I'm would favor more using 1-2 level thug but boosting the swarming rule. a group of 20 10th level ennemies just don't fit anyway

 

[Clovenhoof]

For the record, I did not intend my post to be sarcastic or antagonistic. I hope you didn't take it that way.

No, not at all. I know how sometimes things written on the net come across sarcastic when they're not meant to be. I hope you didn't take my response that way, either.

So far our GM has usually pitted rather weak mooks against us (4-6 levels below us), but we always managed to understand from his descriptions whether we were supposed to fight or fly. And then there were "boss fights" which also were clearly recognizable as such. He hasn't yet had the idea to mix a wider range of levels into a single encounter. I guess it would be fun.

 

[flatscan]

So far our GM has usually pitted rather weak mooks against us (4-6 levels below us), but we always managed to understand from his descriptions whether we were supposed to fight or fly. And then there were "boss fights" which also were clearly recognizable as such. He hasn't yet had the idea to mix a wider range of levels into a single encounter. I guess it would be fun.

Oh it is! Generally, that's how I challenge the PCs in my game. For instance, now 3 of the PCs are 7th level, 1 PC is 6th. The average Pict war party they run into consists of a 5th level party leader, 2 3rd levels, and 3 1st level grunts. The Picts use their numbers to great effect. They'll start with bows at range, which doesn't bother 1 of the PCs too much (7th lvl Barbar/Soldier with medium armor and Tough as Nails feat so generally doesn't take damage from anything other than a Crit with a bow) but the other 3 know they have to quickly close as the party leader has a Bossonian bow, the 3rd lvl Picts have Rapid Shot, and the 1st lvls have Hunting Bows. Then it gets fun. :twisted: The 5th level will use Improved Overrun on one of the PCs (generally the billy badass Tough as Nails Barbar) and the rest will follow up with Power Attacks on the prone PC. So half of the Pict war party will generally go down with one hit from any of the PCs. But that uses up precious attacks so the numbers & tactics work great at scratching and bruising the PCs.

 

[Oly]

As for the one-hit minions, the reason why I'm skeptical of two parallel systems in the same game (proper damage calculation vs. mook rules) is that the player normally cannot know which kind of opposition he is facing right now. Unless you give all the minions purple scarves or, maybe more appropriate for a high-fantasy game, introduce special minion races (goblins, skaven, stuff like that). Otherwise you get these strange scenes as Oly described, like "10 Orcs? We can take em. One orc? Run!"?

It can work, but I think it depends on the style of the game.

7th Sea, in which mostly everything is human, made it quite clear that minions all used the mook rules and moved and acted as a group. So it was really rather clear that the two groups of ten pirates were one hit mooks, behind each squard and egging them on would be some minions who, IIRC, used some but not all of the main combat rules and right at the back would be the villain who would use the same rules as the PCs.

It makes a lot of sense for 7th Sea and as said it did work wonderfully. I can also see it working well for something like Star Wars, Stormtroopers are clearly one hit wonders.

However for Conan, well I'm not so sure.

On the one hand I like the simplicity of being able to hurl huge numbers of minions at heroes and have them be a challenge, yet something they can deal with and something I can handle without worrying about numerous HP totals.

On the other I like some tactical grit with my Conan, and moving and acting 10 mooks as one doesn't really give you that.

So yes it can all work and it can all work very well, but I think that an awful lot of it is down to taste and the style of the game you're playing.