Official Traveller Universe or Original Traveller Universe

[EDG]

Actually, the closest things to complaints I'm seeing, at all, are your proactive responses. Nothing else here, on COTI, RPGnet (either site), Avenger, you name it. No twenty page screeds, no endless thread wars.

It honestly seems like you have a rebuttal in search of an argument. Look around.

I really don't know why you're so obsessed with my comment about complaints earlier. I can't remember where I saw it (TML? I dunno), and I only saw one or two comments, not "twenty page screeds" or flame wars. All I said was "some people" not everybody.

The traveller community you describe may well have both expanded and, on the whole, moved on from the community you describe.

Here on this board it may well have - but then I think most people on this board aren't here to scream and rail about what Mongoose is doing to Traveller. Elsewhere though... that's not necessarily true, sadly.

 

[cbrunish]

I really can't understand the point to this discussion. So what if Mongoose is making other settings for Traveller. It's not that this type of situation has been done before. I remember back in the day when TSR had Greyhawk and added Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Birthright.

I personally have no interest in Babylon 5, but that does not mean that Mongoose should not publish the setting. I will just keep buying the TI setting from them. I can't understand the raving of these "Traveller Purists". What next, condem the people that stated the earth is round or that the sun really does not revolve around the earth. :lol:

Traveller was started as a general sci fi game. The setting was added after. Why not more settings. When I first started playing Traveller the GM had his own setting. It was fun. Again, I prefer the TI settineg (1105).

It's not like Conan, which is based on the books of Robert E Howard, or MERP, which was based on Tolkien. Enjoy what you like about Traveller and drop or don't buy what you don't like. I'm just happy that Traveller has been brought to light again. Especially since, it seems to me, to be a revamped version of Classic Traveller. This was the set of rules I enjoyed the most.

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, the closest things to complaints I'm seeing, at all, are your proactive responses. Nothing else here, on COTI, RPGnet (either site), Avenger, you name it. No twenty page screeds, no endless thread wars.

It honestly seems like you have a rebuttal in search of an argument. Look around.

I really don't know why you're so obsessed with my comment about complaints earlier. I can't remember where I saw it (TML? I dunno), and I only saw one or two comments, not "twenty page screeds" or flame wars. All I said was "some people" not everybody.

Well, I don't understand why you are so obsessed with talking about complaints that don't seem to exist. And yes, you did predict 20 page posts and arguments about ATU/OTU. read your earlier posts. Besides, I'm not the only person asking where these bash fests are ......

However, since you don't understand why I'm asking ("obsessed" is such an overdramatic term in this case) here's why: I just don't think that stoking up ingroup/outgroup stuff is a good idea, and can quickly become simple trollery. I'm not saying you are Trolling, not at all; it's obviously unintentional, so I'm just suggesting that you consider some alternate points, one of which is this : that this issue seems to exist only in your immediate environment, or is mostly in the past. Or at least let us know where all the fun is

The traveller community you describe may well have both expanded and, on the whole, moved on from the community you describe.

Here on this board it may well have - but then I think most people on this board aren't here to scream and rail about what Mongoose is doing to Traveller. Elsewhere though... that's not necessarily true, sadly.

Such as ? You're pretty quick to demand links and references when you think someone is mistaken. So, where are these arguments, tirades and railing about Mongoose ? Links would help, but a simple identification would be fine. And remember, I'm talking about a community here, not just a few (less than half a dozen) malcontents in one impacted thread.

Nonetheless, I'm delighted that we seem to agree that Mongooses approach to expansion without ditching the OTU is a good idea. It's nice to see that creative expansion does not need to be change by elimination, and recognizes that one person's flawed setting is another person's playground. And the fact that we agree on that is more important than some other semi-obsessed poster who hates change, or another who hates anything that isn't new.

 

[captainjack23]

I really can't understand the point to this discussion. So what if Mongoose is making other settings for Traveller. It's not that this type of situation has been done before. I remember back in the day when TSR had Greyhawk and added Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Birthright.

I personally have no interest in Babylon 5, but that does not mean that Mongoose should not publish the setting. I will just keep buying the TI setting from them. I can't understand the raving of these "Traveller Purists". What next, condem the people that stated the earth is round or that the sun really does not revolve around the earth. :lol:

Traveller was started as a general sci fi game. The setting was added after. Why not more settings. When I first started playing Traveller the GM had his own setting. It was fun. Again, I prefer the TI settineg (1105).

It's not like Conan, which is based on the books of Robert E Howard, or MERP, which was based on Tolkien. Enjoy what you like about Traveller and drop or don't buy what you don't like. I'm just happy that Traveller has been brought to light again. Especially since, it seems to me, to be a revamped version of Classic Traveller. This was the set of rules I enjoyed the most.

Actually, the multisetting nature of D&D was a good good thing, for the reasons I've mentioned. It didn't cancel a series just to make the new product stand out.
And, as I've said, I think that defining the main source of the anger about setting changes as "people opposed to any change (the mythical or at least very rare Purists)" is incorrect; it's people who see that their product has been discontinued in favor of another one they don't like. So, they get pissy. The amount (not volume) of pissiness can be a good gauge of how popular the original product was. MT mostly got by, except for the eratta. Most MT stuff was compatable enough to count as support. TNE, neither case. T4 ? Again, production failure, and no time to spread out.

So, on the whole, this whole "anti-ATU backlash" seems to be a non-starter at best, and a strawman at worst.

 

[EDG]

Like I said, where I saw it doesn't matter (obviously didn't matter to me, since I don't recall where it was exactly) - if you think it's "trollery" to comment about it then go complain to a mod about it and stop taking me to task over it yourself. I was just commenting on something I recently saw somewhere, I didn't realise I had to quote chapter and verse on where I saw it. I really don't know how many times I have to say that I don't remember where I saw it, and your continued questioning isn't going to make me magically remember that, so kindly get the hint and move on. :roll:

And I really don't have to specify where people have been spending a lot of time complaining about Mongoose Traveller. Most people can figure out which board I'm talking about.

 

[EDG]

So, on the whole, this whole "anti-ATU backlash" seems to be a non-starter at best, and a strawman at worst.

It's not a "non-starter" - if even Marc Miller is opposed to any change to the OTU (as demonstrated recently by his veto of any changes to the Spinward Marches UWPs), then it's hardly surprising that other people think it's OK to be like that too.

MT and TNE changed Traveller, sure - but while obviously some people didn't like those changes, there was no excuse for some of them to go on about it like it was the end of the world or to make death threats at authors over it. The more rational people just continued to play the version of the game they enjoyed and left others to enjoy the new version - others though decided to inflict a load of overwrought BS and drama about how "GDW had destroyed their Traveller" or somesuch nonsense. As if anyone was holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to play the new versions anyway.

I would say that peoples' "pissiness" had little to do with the popularity of the game and more to do with how overblown they wanted to make their complaints about the new versions.

 

[rust]

Looking at i.e the 13Mann board or other Traveller-boards in germany shows a short peak around publishing time and now a lot of silence

It depends on where you are looking for Traveller activity.

On Fundus Ludi we currently have 33 entries of Traveller material in the
download section, two introductory adventures have been written and a
much longer one is almost completed, and the number of views of the
threads with Traveller content is quite encouraging and keeps rising.

True, B! and Tanelorn are mostly "Traveller-free Zones", but both of
them have never really been interesting for most science fiction fans,
their orientation is more towards fantasy.

 

[Ishvar]

So, on the whole, this whole "anti-ATU backlash" seems to be a non-starter at best, and a strawman at worst.

It's not a "non-starter" - if even Marc Miller is opposed to any change to the OTU (as demonstrated recently by his veto of any changes to the Spinward Marches UWPs), then it's hardly surprising that other people think it's OK to be like that too.

MT and TNE changed Traveller, sure - but while obviously some people didn't like those changes, there was no excuse for some of them to go on about it like it was the end of the world or to make death threats at authors over it. The more rational people just continued to play the version of the game they enjoyed and left others to enjoy the new version - others though decided to inflict a load of overwrought BS and drama about how "GDW had destroyed their Traveller" or somesuch nonsense. As if anyone was holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to play the new versions anyway.

I would say that peoples' "pissiness" had little to do with the popularity of the game and more to do with how overblown they wanted to make their complaints about the new versions.

I agree with you. I don't want to argue about whether there is an OTU or not or about THE edition that IS the OTU.

I think that each Traveller edition is a kind of proposal (and that is true for any game setting). You take it as it is, you change it so that it suits your own taste, you stick to your precious former edition... or you leave it.

I like the Third Imperium, the Rebellion, I am found of the New Era and of Traveller 1248 and as far as I am concerned ALL these various editions ARE the TRAVELLER setting. And when I don't like something I think about the way I can change it so that my players and I will enjoy it. The rest is not very important IMHO.

TNE changed it all. Why GDW did it this way? They owned rights on a universe that had gone out of control and Virus was a way to start it all over and impulse a new movement to all this. This is just a proposal, you take it, you change it or you leave it. You don't like TNE and you don't like Virus... so what! I like it and I want to share it with a few friends, that's all that matters.

We, as players, should remember that companies have goals of their own and that there is an economic drive behind each product. As far as I am concerned, the games I like are seldom the most succesfull. The more original a setting is, the less it sells (there are some exceptions though) because the market is small and less people are interested. We should be glad that a company, and a good one at that, has bought the rights of our favorite game and is trying to make the best of it.

I don't like B5 and I won't buy the Traveller edition. So what! I just wish the best to this product and I hope Mongoose publishing will earn a lot of money with it so that it can publish more Traveller products.

We would be better advise to stop arguing, to take a sheet of paper and to start writing a good story for our next role playing session (and that is also true for me).

 

[dmccoy1693]

Actually, the closest things to complaints I'm seeing, at all, are your proactive responses. Nothing else here, on COTI, RPGnet (either site), Avenger, you name it. No twenty page screeds, no endless thread wars.

It honestly seems like you have a rebuttal in search of an argument. Look around.

Read Tim Ellis's and Calculon's posts throughout this thread. They are publickly boycotting Traveller because the Setting books and the System books are seperate.

 

[Hemdian]

Frankly, if everyone had to pussyfoot around the sensitivities of the Traveller community then nothing would get done for fear of offending them. Mongoose are taking the game in a different direction now - one it arguably should have gone in a long time ago, if not right from the start - and they're going to have it for at least 10 years so in practical terms people really should get used to the idea now.

And if I sound snippy then it's because I'm just tired of this "things should be the way they've always been" attitude in the Traveller community. Isn't it enough that Mongoose have taken CT and modernised it but still kept things largely recognisable? Do we really have to stick with outdated concepts and labels of OTUs and ATUs too? It's not like that anymore - now it's "Judge Dredd with Traveller rules" or "Babylon 5 with Traveller rules" or "Third Imperium with Traveller rules".

And honestly, can you really see anyone being so clueless as to get upset that Babylon 5 (or Judge Dredd or whatever) doesn't fit into the Charted Space setting in the first place? It's patently obvious that they're totally different settings after all.

Okay, EDG, I'll try to be clearer: The ONLY think I original said was a passing comment that the title of the new B5-based setting should be free of ambiguity. Thats all. Nothing else. The end. But you seem to be reading in some kind of hidden 'conservative' agenda into that.

I am NOT against Mongoose releasing ATU settings. I will probably buy the Babylon 5 products as well as other TU settings.

I am NOT advocating the "things should be done the way they're always been" attitude.

Mongoose themselves use the "OTU" label (albeit its changed from "Official Traveller Universe" to "Original Traveller Universe"). Its a recognised term but if you prefer to use "TIT" (Third Imperium with Traveller rules) ...

I wouldn't have thought the "Traveller:2300" box was ambiguous at the time yet the evidence is that it was. And from what I've read in various online forums I think the general level of cluelessness has increased over the years.

On the other hand I, along with many others, still like the OTU (sorry, I mean TIT) setting. Its lasted this long and remains popular. It IS possible to embrace new settings without abandoning the old. But if you're not a TIT fan that's fine too, you don't have to be so rabidly anti-TIT.

So I humbly ask, unless your goal is to alienatate TIT lovers and drive them from this forum, take a deep breath and chill.

 

[EDG]

Okay, EDG, I'll try to be clearer: The ONLY think I original said was a passing comment that the title of the new B5-based setting should be free of ambiguity. Thats all. Nothing else. The end. But you seem to be reading in some kind of hidden 'conservative' agenda into that.

Actually what you said was:

As long as its clear its an ATU, not OTU product it should be fine: To many people "Traveller" = "OTU", so if they buy a Babylon 5 product they will feel cheated if it doesn't fit somewhere into the OTU.

That's all I'm commenting on. I wasn't saying you had the agenda or anything.

But again, I find it hard to believe that people would be dumb enough to pick up a Babylon 5 book while expecting it to be integrated into the OTU setting. And if they insist on thinking that "Traveller = OTU" despite all the evidence to the contrary then they deserve what they get.

 

[dmccoy1693]

"TIT" (Third Imperium with Traveller rules)

I am definitely pro-TIT. I love TIT. TIT is the greatest. Expanded TIT is cool too. I want BIG book of foreven TIT.

 

[EDG]

I am definitely pro-TIT. I love TIT. TIT is the greatest. Expanded TIT is cool too. I want BIG book of foreven TIT.

There goes any credibility that Traveller may have had...!

 

[captainjack23]

I am definitely pro-TIT. I love TIT. TIT is the greatest. Expanded TIT is cool too. I want BIG book of foreven TIT.

There goes any credibility that Traveller may have had...!

I think you'll find that TIT has far more credibility in gaming circles than any rules set, setting or....well, anything; even dice. Well, probably dice.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TrippyHippy]

Wouldn't you like a bit of ASS - Alternative Sci-fi Setting - too?

 

[rust]

Gentlemen, I obviously have to pretend to be shocked. :shock:

On the other hand, selling Traveller as "T&A" could win a lot of new
Traveller fans ... :lol:

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, the closest things to complaints I'm seeing, at all, are your proactive responses. Nothing else here, on COTI, RPGnet (either site), Avenger, you name it. No twenty page screeds, no endless thread wars.

It honestly seems like you have a rebuttal in search of an argument. Look around.

Read Tim Ellis's and Calculon's posts throughout this thread. They are publickly boycotting Traveller because the Setting books and the System books are seperate.

Strange. A boycott is not what I read, but then again I only read back about four pages from the end. And its pretty much secondary to this discussion, as I'm pretty sure that Tim and Calculon were arguing on personal prefernence about combining setting books and core rules. NOT that there should be no other ATU, just that any ATU book should (I think) have the rules bound in, rather than available seperately; IN fact, the couple of people there posting that they do not want the OTU bits of the core book seems to be the exact opposite of ranting OTU purism which was what was predicted and doesn't seem to happened.

Lets be clear here. I am NOT saying that there isn't criticism of MGT, or won't be, but rather that the predicted "Obsessed Traveller Purist Lobby" hasn't shown up; and the comments that it has, seem unsupported so far. And I hope that that means that most of the community has moved on from a lot of bitter rancor that was common five to ten years ago. And so, I'm hoping that this is just another "unintentional strawman/boogeyman" of the inTaRwebz

 

[captainjack23]

Gentlemen, I obviously have to pretend to be shocked. :shock:

On the other hand, selling Traveller as "T&A" could win a lot of new
Traveller fans ... :lol:

And old ones. We're not THAT old yet.... :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

Like I said, where I saw it doesn't matter (obviously didn't matter to me, since I don't recall where it was exactly) - if you think it's "trollery" to comment about it then go complain to a mod about it and stop taking me to task over it yourself. I was just commenting on something I recently saw somewhere, I didn't realise I had to quote chapter and verse on where I saw it. I really don't know how many times I have to say that I don't remember where I saw it, and your continued questioning isn't going to make me magically remember that, so kindly get the hint and move on. :roll:

And I really don't have to specify where people have been spending a lot of time complaining about Mongoose Traveller. Most people can figure out which board I'm talking about.

That would be the board you describe repeated as completely irrelevant, and populated by idiots, correct ? That's good source material.

Okay, if you just want to make dramatic claims with no backup, far be it from me to suggest a way you can make your point and not seem to be living in your own ATU.

 

[captainjack23]

So, on the whole, this whole "anti-ATU backlash" seems to be a non-starter at best, and a strawman at worst.

It's not a "non-starter" - if even Marc Miller is opposed to any change to the OTU (as demonstrated recently by his veto of any changes to the Spinward Marches UWPs), then it's hardly surprising that other people think it's OK to be like that too.

MT and TNE changed Traveller, sure - but while obviously some people didn't like those changes, there was no excuse for some of them to go on about it like it was the end of the world or to make death threats at authors over it. The more rational people just continued to play the version of the game they enjoyed and left others to enjoy the new version - others though decided to inflict a load of overwrought BS and drama about how "GDW had destroyed their Traveller" or somesuch nonsense. As if anyone was holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to play the new versions anyway.

I would say that peoples' "pissiness" had little to do with the popularity of the game and more to do with how overblown they wanted to make their complaints about the new versions.

I could point out that any of these changes you say are so needed and so great (and I agree) would not be allowed if MWM was as big an impediment as you insist. He has to approved all of them. So, unfortunately that argument is another non-starter. Possibly Marc has blocked some things you and some others think are good and wondeful, but hey, its his. If he made every change suggested, not only would we have sentient puddles but also Vargr Pokemon and the like.

But, okay. So you're still upset over the TNE shift, and still mad at MWM; and have no sympathy for anyone who felt annoyed that their favorite series was cancelled. So, rather than making a fuss people should just shut up and game. Okay, I can see that. Which, actually, was what i was suggesting: rather than posting innuendo, just game ?