Not smuggling - declaring banned items when entering high law level

[Anonymous]

Is there a defined standard (imperial law?) for what happens when you enter a star system, and local law levels make some of your equipment illegal?

I would expect perhaps:

(a) You declare the item, it is inspected, and you're allowed to keep it so long as it remains locked away on your ship.

(b) As (a) but the item is confiscated and returned to you when you leave.

(c) as (b) but it's never returned. (This is annoying for PCs)

(d) Arrested for even entering the system with the items, even if you declare it. (This is even more annoying).

How are people dealing with this situation?

Is it any different with aliens e.g. you go to racistworld?

What about fugitives from one jurisdiction?

Imperial fugitives?

Armed starships are legal everywhere, right?

 

[Condottiere]

Local jurisdiction stops usually at one hundred planetary diameters.

So park there and take a jeepney.

 

[MonkeyX]

I’ve always gone with A but I can see B being a possibility if something major was discovered mainly so the PCs don’t lose stuff they just brought to a high law level world. I could see the nessessity of creating smuggling areas for this type of equipment and if it was going to end up being taken away permenatly then I’d advise the players that this is the standard procedure.

 

[Old School]

Within the imperium, starports are are outside local jurisdiction, so there’s no issue so long as youre not carrying nuclear weapons. If you cross the XT line local laws apply.

Outside the Imperium, your mileage may vary, but a system that benefits from being on a trade route would likely have a process in place for cargo that eould be illegal locally to pass through so long as it stays crated up in the cargo hold. A less trade friendly or even xenophobic world would probably put you in (c) or (d).

 

[Anonymous]

Within the imperium, starports are are outside local jurisdiction, so there’s no issue so long as youre not carrying nuclear weapons. If you cross the XT line local laws apply.

That actually is the key I was missing to "why the hell does the Imperium even work at all?". Thank you.

 

[Old School]

Sure. The Imperium itself is law level 1. It runs the official starport for each system, including downport(s). Some publications over the years have also included details of openly carried weapons in starports, either sidearms only (classic traveller), or none (Gurps). Dont remember if MgT1 addressed this in any of it supplements.

 

[Condottiere]

Local writ doesn't extend to Imperium starports, but all points inbetween that and a hundred planetary diameters are a grey area.

You'd probably not want to stray from specific flight paths.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Imperial starports within the Imperium default to the low law level within the boundary of the starport. Private starports or planetary starports that are not Imperial owned and operated starports may have law levels at the same level or higher than expected. Amber zone, perhaps red zone warnings would be in place.

Imperial law level in open space is whatever the Captain of the IN ship that is ordering you to match vectors for inspection says it is

 

[Linwood]

I generally run with the idea that Imperial starports are outside local jurisdictions - but being a good neighbor is good business. So cargos considered illegal by the planet can generally pass thru the port so long as they are bound elsewhere, but the starport authority wouldn’t consider the manifests confidential and might turn them over to the local customs enforcement agency if requested (via a warrant).

Personal weaponry I treat a little differently. While a Class D or E wouldn’t care or might even recommend carrying Really Big Guns (“it’s mating season for those pesky titano-roaches. Might want to carry something with real punch to fend them off”), Class A and B (maybe C) would likely set an equivalent Law Level of 3 or 4 to reduce the chance of unfortunate incidents. Blades and handguns would be OK but heavy armor and military weapons probably not. Armored and locked cases are provided (at a substantial daily fee) to those who wish to move their toys from one vessel to another; starport security provides the unlock codes at the hatchway to the destination vessel. Those passing from a Law Level 0 world into the starport would go thru the same thing.

 

[phavoc]

If the ship was making it's way to an imperial starport then most likely they would be informed that the gear is illegal outside of the starport boundaries. Depending on the local conditions and most especially, the items, the local imperial authorities would then provide the next steps. The impierum recognizes local planetary law and has no legal authority with a few exceptions. So local administrators are going to, generally, try to ensure that incoming ships and people don't make their jobs more difficult by banned items being brought into the local economy.

A lot depends on exactly what it is, and how the local relationship between the planet and the Imperium is. Remember that a planet controls and has it's own laws out to 100D. So that means you have to traverse local ruled space to get to the Imperial port. Strictly speaking a ship that is transiting the system only could essentially stay in "imperial" space so long as it did not deviate from a specified course/ corridor to get to the Imperial port and then leave in roughly the same fashion. That would allow for a legal fiction of never entering local jurisdiction. It's kind of like diplomatic immunity, though without the broad-based protections (little nugget here - a nation can strip it's own people of immunity in another nation at any time if it's politically palatable to them and their particular offense is of a serious enough nature). that diplomats have.

If the item were say some sort of drug that the local admins have the death penalty for but the imperium grudingly tolerates, then maybe it would have to be surrendered while they were on planet. If was 10 crates of fusion rifles they might keep them in custody to ensure they don't fall into the local terrorist cells hands. If it was a copy of "Spacers Nudist Digest" then the customs guy might just tell them it's best to leave it in their bunk because the local authorities are religious loonies who'd hang them if they caught them off starport property with it.

Generally speaking, so long as they don't leave Imperial property the local laws don't apply to them. But straying, just a little or a lot, is where the referee gets to have fun. Err, I mean provide a legal and moral response that any good planetary government would do to ensure the well-being of it's citizens.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A lot depends on exactly what it is, and how the local relationship between the planet and the Imperium is. Remember that a planet controls and has it's own laws out to 100D. So that means you have to traverse local ruled space to get to the Imperial port.

Unless the Imperium claims sovereignty over all travelling ships, which GT states that it does.

So, travelling to the starport you are still under Imperial jurisdiction.

It's only if you have the bad taste to park your ship outside the extraterritorial starport that you enter the local jurisdiction.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Well how else will the ship be able to make that delivery of questionable goods if they don't park off the starport??? Those illegal gizmos are not going to deliver themselves!!


And on a lighter note you could always carry your illegal weapons in your off hand slot like in the Zhodani conspiracy.

https://www.abandonwaredos.com/docs.php?sf=mega1-sol.txt&st=walkthrough&sg=Megatraveller+1%3A+the+Zhodani+conspiracy&idg=

"There are various Law Levels for each port. Keep your major weapon in the second slot, and it will be overlooked."

lol

 

[phavoc]

A lot depends on exactly what it is, and how the local relationship between the planet and the Imperium is. Remember that a planet controls and has it's own laws out to 100D. So that means you have to traverse local ruled space to get to the Imperial port.

Unless the Imperium claims sovereignty over all travelling ships, which GT states that it does.

So, travelling to the starport you are still under Imperial jurisdiction.

It's only if you have the bad taste to park your ship outside the extraterritorial starport that you enter the local jurisdiction.

Yes, but the rules also state that planetary jurisdiction is out to 100D. So it's dual jurisdiction near the planet. And you have to understand that is a nuanced sentence. So a ship travelling to a station in orbit is not subject to Imperial jurisdiction. A ship travelling to a moon is not subject to imperial jurisdiction. A ship jumping into a system who's destination is a starport that is not imperial would lose imperial protection once it declares it's destination. Ships still in orbit of a planet are subject to it's jurisdiction.

The line is where a ship is traveling through a system and makes no stops other than to refuel or take on or drop cargo/passengers at an imperial port. Then the ship receives full imperial trade protection.

The exceptions are when the planetary rules attempt to overlap imperial law. At that point imperial law is in it's primacy.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, but the rules also state that planetary jurisdiction is out to 100D. So it's dual jurisdiction near the planet. And you have to understand that is a nuanced sentence. So a ship travelling to a station in orbit is not subject to Imperial jurisdiction. A ship travelling to a moon is not subject to imperial jurisdiction. A ship jumping into a system who's destination is a starport that is not imperial would lose imperial protection once it declares it's destination.

GT Nobles uses a quite sweeping definition:

this includes all spacecraft (military and civil) traveling within the Imperium, ...

And this explicitly overrides local jurisdiction. So, as far as I can see a small craft travelling to a moon is under Imperial jurisdiction, not local.

This is of course quite ridiculous, but much of canon is...

Ships still in orbit of a planet are subject to it's jurisdiction.

Agreed, a parked ship is no longer travelling.

 

[phavoc]

GT Nobles uses a quite sweeping definition:

this includes all spacecraft (military and civil) traveling within the Imperium, ...

And this explicitly overrides local jurisdiction. So, as far as I can see a small craft travelling to a moon is under Imperial jurisdiction, not local.

This is of course quite ridiculous, but much of canon is...

Meh. I'm not sure the original designers thought this fully through. By definition it's contradictory. I'm sure whoever thought the rules up didn't take into consideration the idea of a confederation-like jurisprudence and writing such sweeping definitions. Or else it's been decided by Imperial judiciary. But as it stands you can't have it working both ways. I prefer to take a view that allows the rule to stand as defined, but with a logical explanation behind where the lines are drawn. It probably helps I have worked in government so such wish-washy rules don't sit well with me.

Imperial commerce rules would reign supreme, but since worlds are allowed to make war on one another within the imperial space, you'd think that trade rules would recognize this fact.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Meh. I'm not sure the original designers thought this fully through.

Of course they haven't. We are taking factoids from different editions, decades, and authors, assume they are all correct, and try figure out a (non-existent) grand design.

By definition it's contradictory. ...
It probably helps I have worked in government so such wish-washy rules don't sit well with me.

I don't see the contradiction, nor any "wishy-washiness".

It is no more contradictory than extraterritorial starports.

"All spacecraft travelling within the Imperium" seems quite clear to me.



Reasonably if starports are extraterritorial, then access to them has to be extraterritorial too. If a local system could intercept ships in space and impose local law before the ships reached the starport, starport extraterritoriality would be pointless. So, at least starships travelling between systems would have to be extraterritorial.

That argument does obviously not apply to any spacecraft travelling within a local system.

 

[phavoc]

I don't see the contradiction, nor any "wishy-washiness".

It is no more contradictory than extraterritorial starports.

"All spacecraft travelling within the Imperium" seems quite clear to me.

Reasonably if starports are extraterritorial, then access to them has to be extraterritorial too. If a local system could intercept ships in space and impose local law before the ships reached the starport, starport extraterritoriality would be pointless. So, at least starships travelling between systems would have to be extraterritorial.

That argument does obviously not apply to any spacecraft travelling within a local system.

You don't see the contradiction? You can't have both planetary law rules out to 100D and Imperial rules everywhere. There is overlap at every planetary jurisdiction. So either Imperial law prevails everywhere off-planet, or planetary law prevails up to 100D. OR, you have an overlap of some sort and rules about which law is applied to where. It's pretty clear that Imperial law is outside the 100D limit, though unless there is an Imperial warship to stop you a planet will be able to enforce it's laws anywhere in the system and you'll have to wait for Imperial justice to catch up after the fact. I don't see Imperial law being in effect when the ships in question don't go beyond the 100D limit. That's no different than planetary rules where the Imperium would have no legal authority outside the starport. Logically (and using current and past laws and treaties as examples) there would be rules defining when and how each set of laws are enforced. Otherwise the contradiction would make using either rule difficult at best. The one that trumps the other is the one with the biggest warship at the moment and at a specific place. And that would not fit within the gaming universe.

As I said in my first post, if the ship was travelling to/from Imperial starports then Imperial law should stand as the one being enforced. Otherwise up to the 100D limit local laws are in effect. You have similar laws today that rule the sea. Turkey and the Bosporus strait is a prime example. The Montreux convention sets the rules for civilian and military ship traffic even though the straits belong (under normal 12 mile rules) to Turkey. Access to Imperial starports would operate under something similar whereby the planet had limited control over ships cargo's when they are fully within Imperial rules. Simple things like traffic control and such could arguably come under planetary rules so long as they were reasonably enforced and didn't materially effect trade.

 

[Linwood]

So - “safe passage” corridors thru 100D space to and from the starport. Kind of like the Berlin Airlift travel corridors back in the day?

 

[phavoc]

So - “safe passage” corridors thru 100D space to and from the starport. Kind of like the Berlin Airlift travel corridors back in the day?

Not specific corridors, because planets move! But yeah, I could see a ship that arrives in a system declaring to traffic control what it's cargo and passenger manifest is and where it expects to dock/land to get rid of it. Based on that it would determine what customs and duties would be in effect.

Plus a ship that gets rid of cargo at one port may move to another (or say an industrial area or station) to take on new cargo. If ports or facilities are close enough together ships will do that today. Spacecraft with grav capabilities, or ships in orbit with shuttles can easily move to any port or facility on or near a planet.

 

[phavoc]

So - “safe passage” corridors thru 100D space to and from the starport. Kind of like the Berlin Airlift travel corridors back in the day?

Not specific corridors, because planets move! Though if you wanted you could easily have a set of traffic corridors for a planet on multiple axis which would allow ships that would not be landing to avoid entering planetary jurisdiction. Though it would probably be more practical to have a ship that arrives in a system declaring to traffic control what it's cargo and passenger manifest is and where it expects to dock/land to get rid of it. Based on that it would determine what customs and duties would be in effect.

Plus a ship that gets rid of cargo at one port may move to another (or say an industrial area or station) to take on new cargo. If ports or facilities are close enough together ships will do that today. Spacecraft with grav capabilities, or ships in orbit with shuttles can easily move to any port or facility on or near a planet.