Not Another White Star Thread (TM)

[AdrianH]

Give it anti-fighter trait, too... for killing those pesky Drakhs?

Drakh have no fighters. :lol:

That actually make a lot of sense. They kill many fighters in the show. Many of them are Shadow's and Vorlon's :wink:

That's what Accurate pulsars are for.

OK, so in the game fighters always move after capital ships, so fighters can usually move out of the way of the pulsars. That doesn't help them if two White Stars are facing each other - any fighter attacking White Star 1 will be attacked by White Star 2.

 

[AdrianH]

In response to the specific requirements of one particular Anla Shok', one White Star has been heavily upgraded by cannibalising parts from the rest of the ISA fleet.

Good news: David's White Star now has 4AD Improved Neutron Lasers on port, starboard and aft arc; 6AD Improved Neutron Laser on forward arc; Dodge 3, changing to Dodge 1 when all other White Stars are destroyed; and Interceptors and Anti-Fighter traits. Death Blossom has been implemented by scavenging almost every Molecular Pulsar in sight.

Bad news: all other White Stars now have 1AD Molecular Pulsars, 1AD Improved Neutron lasers which can't fire at all if the White Star does CBD or fires Molecular Pulsars, and Dodge 6. The Victory loses its Interceptors and Anti-Fighter traits, as well as its Improved Neutron Laser.

Good news: David won't have to wait long before he gets to use Dodge 1.

Bad news: Shadow Scouts and Drakh Light Raiders don't care. :twisted:

 

[Hindsight]

I could care less about Matt, and whether he gets back to me personally. The White Star is arguably the icon ship, the X-Wing... the Millennium Falcon... (what the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?) of the Babylon 5 World. When there are some ideas thrown around, dozens and dozens of pages of ideas attached to it, and the ISA players and others condense that down to one universally (mostly) supported adjustment to the craft....

...a playtester, not even Matt himself, tells us that Matt didn't like it, and then following that... nothing. Silence. According to Previews wasn't the book supposed to be out by now?

Doesn't sit well with me.

 

[mrambassador1]

what doesn't sit well with you

 

[Da Boss]

I could care less about Matt, and whether he gets back to me personally. The White Star is arguably the icon ship, the X-Wing... the Millennium Falcon... (what the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?) of the Babylon 5 World. When there are some ideas thrown around, dozens and dozens of pages of ideas attached to it, and the ISA players and others condense that down to one universally (mostly) supported adjustment to the craft....

...a playtester, not even Matt himself, tells us that Matt didn't like it, and then following that... nothing. Silence. According to Previews wasn't the book supposed to be out by now?

Doesn't sit well with me.

Ah don't worry - keep playing with the present version - I had a similar thing with Shadow Fighters :wink: - I thnk that was a 28 page thread and now its changing for the better. Maybe you'll get your knife fight version in the end........maybe not but enjoy yourself

 

[Kosh127]

Having played the ISA for a long time in all kinds of games (tournaments, campaigns, bring and battles, floor games, pick up games) I can tell you this. The WS is a great ship. It is able to take the damage and when shooting ALL OF ITS WEOPENS do alot of damage. However take the average rolls for a beam and you will find out that a WS does less damage on AVERAGE than most raid ships. I know trust me that a beam CAN do far more damage that a 12 AD Super AP Double damage gun on lock on, yet this is seldom the case. The WS gets killed alot and if you are mad that you can't kill it or that you play against an A@#W#@#@ that goes on close blast doors all the time think about this. Why change a ship if people that abuse it are trying to break the system and be a jerk. I have yet to play a game were people don't kill the WS. You will always find people trying to break the system of look for the things that makes things unfair to others. Try telling them how you feel and if that doesn't work don't play them. After some time they will get the hint. The WS is fine were it is. If you need to hack some of it off than make the special rule for it that it gets -1 AD if it goes on close blast doors, not every time it shoots, that just doesn't make sense. Mongoose is a publishing company and it shows. They may have the best of intensions but they listen to the people that cry the loudest and most ofent. The term silent majority runs true about this game to. I am not saying that I am right about everything or that I can fix everything I am just saying that the WS is not as bad as some people say.

 

[Ripple]

Or because you only play with folks who play the way you like you end up not actually playing the game that is published.

I always hate that folks that say just don't play that person. Works great if you have a large group to choose from, but smaller groups basically means you end up with very expensive paper weights and no gaming group.

Similar issue with the only play with the rules you want comments. I can always play with the rules I want, but I'd like them to be the rules of the game too. Why? So I can play with other folks, and make intelligent comments on the boards that influence all new content.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

The "knife fight" version is the one we're trying to get into the next playtest pack instead of the current playtest pack version - would you rather see the beams at 10" range or 12" range and why?

Personally I would rather see 10" for two reasons:

1) Balance. I think this would be balanced for the White Star.

2) Tactics. With the range of its weapons the same and the beam being much more powerful than the pulsars, it forces the ISA/AoL player to make the decision each turn on whether to engage or to hold back. This is particularly the issue if the commander is short on initiative sinks and lunging in will mean that the White Star will see a lot of return fire (particularly with the secondary weapons systems).

 

[Kosh127]

Ripple if you play with a person who is only try to take adantage of the rules to the "cheese" or is on;y worried about winning and making sure you aren't having fun then I say don't play. Its a game for fun. If you don't have fun don't play. I hate it when people say theres not enough people to play. Its easy to find people thatp play its just will you spend the time to ge to them.

As for the 10 inch beam on the WS its just not enough. ya the ship is fast but look at the bone heads they have a hsip at raid that is 14in 2 45 turns and more firepower. People aren't crying about that. The fleet is based around the WS yes its a powerful ship and yes its good. But Its no to good or turn strong

 

[Triggy]

But why isn't it enough? I'm looking for reasons not comparisons to the best aspects of other ships whilst ignoring the worst aspects.

At the moment the White Star is too powerful, what do we do about it is the question rather than saying it isn't the best at everything and how can we make it at least as good in every category as the best other ships...

 

[Hindsight]

It is hard to compare the White Star to other ships, statwise, as dodge and adaptive armor is not a common combination on other ships.

I would prefer 12", as obviously that is stronger, but if 10" is deemed the correct adjustment... cool.

 

[Foxmeister]

The fleet is based around the WS yes its a powerful ship and yes its good. But Its no to good or turn strong

If it wasn't too strong the discussion around nerfing it wouldn't be exist, yet it does! IMHO, it is only bordering on broken, but with the beam at its current range it encourages players to use the exceptional manoeuverability of the craft to sit at 18" and stay out out enemies weapon arcs.

As it currently stands, the WS is not representative of the WS that is seen in the show!

Regards,

Dave

 

[wpngjstr]

At the moment the White Star is too powerful, what do we do about it is the question rather than saying it isn't the best at everything and how can we make it at least as good in every category as the best other ships...

I would suggest it's not too powerful, but rather it's too abusable

I would favor 10" beam and 12" pulsars. Given the beam sniping is the main perceived problem, a short range beam requires you to get in close with large opponants to hurt them, while 12" pulsars allows a little stand off when skirmishing (and fighter engagement), without being as abusable as a beam sniper.
It also gives the WS player extra tactical choices; stand clear, get in close for the beam, running into greater secondaries, or standoff for reduced exposure but reduced firepower. The 2" difference is small enough to make precise maneuvering important, and still gets it deep into most engagement envelopes.

If both are at 10" it becomes a "get to 10" and open up with everything" platform- effective, but less interesting(it's a straight yes/no binary solution), and a 12" beam/10" secondaries would still be capable of beam sniping, just with greater vulnerability (making CBD even more likely)

 

[Juzza]

been out of the loop for awhile but whats happing with the white star???

I would be really upset if you nerfed the white stars. As i can think of a alot of raid level ships that are as powerful on the table. and if you nerf the white star then you may aswell do the rest

I can't see how a white star is that abuseable considering that average dice will net you 6 damage. sure there is the chance to roll huge numbers but more often then that you will get nothing. no reason to lower there range either

If the range was lowered then i would never beat vree (one of my main oponants) At least that 18 inch beam gives me hope cause once we are close and I have not killed anything I know i'm in for a world of hurt as it is.

 

[Foxmeister]

I can't see how a white star is that abuseable considering that average dice will net you 6 damage. sure there is the chance to roll huge numbers but more often then that you will get nothing. no reason to lower there range either

I suggest that you need to read one of the many, *many*, threads on the subject of White Star abuse for enlightenment!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Triggy]

Juzza - average dice get you just over 10 damage (don't forget the damage from criticals too). So without including the other main weapon, a single shot destroys roughly a third of a typical raid PL ship. That is about the right proportion for the total of all weapons on a ship with all weapons in the same arc and that sort of range. Combine this with very good survivability and almost unparalleled speed and manoeuvrability and you may start to see why it's too powerful (and I can't think of any other raid ships that are as powerful either).


Foxmeister has the right of it too - just check out any of the White Star threads of the last six months and you'll see this isn't an uncommon opinion.

 

[Hindsight]

Certain races, have the Scissors to my Rock. Certain races are the Paper to my Rock. I will always trump the Scissors, but I can't survive a run in with Paper. That is just how this game was developed. There are races that can get around Dodge, there are races that can plink plink plink a White Star to death with fighters.

Nerf the White Star, and you're helping Paper even more, and giving Scissors an advantage it didn't need.

The proposed change takes away one of my beam dice, if I do anything else. If I close blast doors, if I fire a second weapon, what have you. Well, unfortunatly the dice gods hate me, and if I only had one dice to roll, the odds of me rolling 4+ is just that much less likely. Holy Crap the White Star can get great numbers, well, that turn I fail to roll higher than a four... I did what... nothing?

There are statistics, and there is what makes the game fun. The White Star is toast if it loses its one arc, the white star dies horribly to fighters, and things that can ignore dodge. Yes, not everyone has those things, but if you nerf us, the things we already suck against, we're just going to suck more against, and I'll seriously retire my ships.

If I roll two dice, I might roll both, I might roll nothing. I tell you what though, when I do get that run away beam roll, it is something I think makes the game a lot of fun to play, and with just one dice to roll, I think the odds of having one of those fun explosive "holy crap!" moments becomes less and less likely.

Across the board the game is not balanced point for point. Certain things are just built to be better than others. You think ISA players think the Liati is fair? Why would a game of multiple armies, build a ship just to kill another ship? That isn't system wide balance, that is X vs Y balance, ignoring Z, W, and Q.

Everyone should have something to deal with everyone else, and until that is the case, this game will never truly come into balance, and remain a novelty for folks who got a kick out of the B5 series.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

White Stars are vulnerable to fighter attack, but they can dodge the fighters' weapons. I know of no fighter unit with an accurate weapon.

 

[Triggy]

Hindsight - the reason for the proposed "knife fight" White Star is to make the game more fun. Most people agree that the White Star is overpowered against virtually any opponent. Even those where it isn't, the ISA can take other options if they know their foe in advance and they certainly aren't worse off in specific matchups than almost any other race.

The reason behind the "knife fight" version as opposed to the "sniper" version in the current playtest pack is for exactly the reasons you outline - having 2AD is a lot more fun for both sides with a little more predictability to the beam rolls. Also, the White Star in the show is much more of a ship that dives into action, does its stuff and pulls out again before it hits again later on.

 

[wpngjstr]

The knifefight version is an abuse nerf (doesn't really bother those of us that get in close and accept losses anyway)

The 1AD if you do anything else is a power nerf (stops the CBD sniping, but badly hurts people that get close in, who weren't the problem anyway)

I would hesitate to say it's overpowered against ANY opponant- Gaim fleets come to mind, as do Narn and Drakh, or Pak'ma'ra