Non-human Languages

[Exubae]

One thing I've always found a bit odd about Glorantha is the diversity of languages applied to humans doesn't also get applied to the Non-humans:
Elves all speak Aldryami
Trolls all speak Dark Tongue
Dwarfs all speak Mostali (You can understand this as they're immortal
and disregard change.)

Both Trolls and Elves are spread over multiple continents with the variations they impose.
On the one side it makes gaming easy.
On the other it seem odd.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Yes, it's true that non-human Gloranthan races are monocultures. They each have a single religion, and more consistent psychology than humans. It's one of the peculiarities of Glorantha compared to most other fantasy settings.

 

[Vagni]

I think Phil is essentially right on the mono-culture point.

I seem to remember their being some differences mentioned in old Glorantha material for a few of the more unusual 'sub-races' such as Yellow Efs, Sea Elfs, Sea Trolls and Snow trolls etc.

Here's a link to a good website on the matter, not sure of the sources though:

http://karamo.nexenservices.com/glowar/language.htm

Hope it helps.

 

[languagegeek]

On the other it seem odd.

The first thing I do with *any* setting is do a total rework of the languages: human and non-human. I do that by looking at the historical timeline, and fine when a given culture was established. Then by applying a sort of glotto-chronology, I can see how much that language would have changed, and how many languages it has branched into. As a guideline, you could say that the Rome started with Latin, and 2000+ years later we have a whole pile of Romance languages: French, Occitan, Arpitan, Castillian, Catalan, Sardinian, Romanian...

So do the same thing in a setting. If empire/culture X was established 3000 years ago, then extrapolate how many languages there ought to be now, and how much they differ from each other. Some races may have long lifespans or extremely conservative cultures, so the time factor can change.

But then I'm a linguist and geek out on this kind of thing.

 

[Loz]

I think you're right. Dagori Inkarth will have, at the very least, its own dialect and idioms, as will Shadows' Dance. There's no reason why non-human languages shouldn't be every bit as complex as human ones.

 

[PhilHibbs]

The first thing I do with *any* setting is do a total rework of the languages: human and non-human. I do that by looking at the historical timeline, and fine when a given culture was established.

That's tricky with Glorantha - according to the Theyalan calendar, time as we know it only started 900 years ago. The Dara Happans would disagree, as they have a calendar that goes back 10,000 years, but there's a school of thought that says that back then, Dara Happa was not part of the same world. Glorantha is four worlds that have collided and overlapped (more of a wave interference pattern than a physical collision), and the collision "ended" 900 years ago. There are still aftershocks, such as the Pseudocosmic Egg and the appearance of the Abiding Book.

Also, there's HeroQuests in which Uz from all over the world meet and commune with their God on a regular basis, and Aldryami are tuned in to the vibe of nature. So, applying real-world chronological linguistic drift to Glorantha doesn't really work. Similarly. a geologist looking at the map of Glorantha would ROFL, but Glorantha is not geological, it's geomythical (some would say geoillogical).

There's no reason why non-human languages shouldn't be every bit as complex as human ones.

Nonsense, there are plenty of reasons! YGM, as always, V.

 

[Vagni]

I think the non-human languages for Elfs and Trolls would be fairly stable, but there would be regional accents that would probably be undetectable to most humans.

Also bear in mind that all Elfs all have a kind of natural link (used to be called Elfsense, I'm not sure it this is still around in MRQII) and Trolls use sounds and gestures humans are largely unaware of in their speech. Maybe Trollkin use a debased Dark Tongue, probably not dissimilar to a young child's grasp of grammar - 'I did fetch it', 'I felled over' etc.

Dragonewts are just weird and are all linked by their draconic natures anyway.

Dwarfs are simply 'programmed' with their language so it would be unlikely to vary greatly. Maybe heretics would be different.

The only major differences I envisage would be the geographically separated cultures of Yellow Elfs of the southern jungles, Jungle-Trolls, Snow Trolls, Sea-Trolls and Sea-Elfs. I think the Mistress Race Trolls have their own language as well, Dark Tongue is ultimately derived from this.

I would say the simplest way to handle 'accents' would be to apply a modifier based on each region from +0 to -20% or so on a case by case basis. Anything harder than this to understand should probably be considered a separate language.

Humans are a lot more diverse and regionalistic in their cultures, they fight amongst each other far more than the Elder Races ever have - this results in even more diversity and cultures. Humans are also shorter lived than many Elder Races, so their language is probably more susceptible to change.

One of my (somewhat vague) house rules is that each major cult would have its own cult language. This may be a very simple set of very specific 'technical' terms or it may resemble a full blown language. For example Storm Speech for Orlanthi and Fire Speech for solar cults. This would be spoken at a characters Specific Theology skill.

 

[simonh]

Principles that apply to human cultures, such as linguistic drift, don't necessarily apply to non-humans that have completely different psychologies.

For example, Troll speech appears to be almost instinctive in nature. Dwarfs are immortal (many of them anyway). Aldryami have some sort of proto-telepathic communion wit their forest. Each of these factors will completely change their linguistic development compared to humans.

Another factor is their non-human psychology. Sandy Petersen once explained it like this (I'm paraphrasing) in terms of Freudian psychology: Trolls only had an Id, Dwarves only have an Ego and Aldryami only have a Superego.

I posted about this to the Glorantha Digest back in 1998. I've copied in an extract from the post below, it starts with some definitions and then explains how I think they apply to the elder races. This doesn't mean I believe in Freudian Psychology, just that it can be a useful way to think about the races in Glorantha.

-------
Id : the, one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic
theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic
energy derived from instinctual needs and drives.

Ego : the, one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic
theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the
person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of
and adaptation to reality.

Superego : the, one of the three divisions of the psyche in
psychoanalytic theory that is only partly conscious, represents
internalization of parental conscience and the rules of society, and
functions to reward and punish through a system of moral attitudes,
conscience, and a sense of guilt.

Supposedly, trolls emphasise the id, mostali the ego and aldryami the
superego. ie :

Trolls are motivated by their instictual desires for food, offspring,
social power, etc. Their lack of an ego means that they have no real
sense of being a 'part of things', their lot in life is simply necessery
in order to get more food, beer, offspring, etc. The only way to prevent
them from satisfying their primitive needs is through force, or the
threat of it. They have no moral sense (superego), hence the brutal
nature of Troll society.

Mostali emphasize the Ego. Their whole purpose and raison d'etre is to
work on the world machine - their conception of reality. Their whole
lives are dedicated to fullfilling their need to feel usefull. Thier
personal needs (id) are of minimal importance and they have no moral
sense (superego) whatsoever. They simply do their job, whatever the
consequences - forever.

Aldryami emphasize the superego. Their entire lives are dedicated to the
protection and service of their mother Aldrya (internalization of
parental conscience), and their home forest. Their whole lives are
dedicated to the service of their home and people. Their personal
desires and needs (id) and sense of individual achievement and possition
in the scheme of things (ego) are superfluous to them.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Humans are also shorter lived than many Elder Races, so their language is probably more susceptible to change.

That's another good point - imagine if most of the kings and queens in Europe were over a thousand years old, what effect would that have on European languages?

 

[Vagni]

Aldryami emphasize the superego. Their entire lives are dedicated to the protection and service of their mother Aldrya (internalization of
parental conscience), and their home forest. Their whole lives are
dedicated to the service of their home and people. Their personal
desires and needs (id) and sense of individual achievement and possition
in the scheme of things (ego) are superfluous to them.

Which is presumably why Elf adventurers are considered as 'rootless' by other Elfs. They leave that environment and service to develop or follow their own desires - often returning to the fold years later when they become home-sick and realise what they have left behind. These individuals are then welcomed back along with the knowledge and experiences of the outside world they bring - knowledge used to protect the communities and forests all the better.

Perhaps it's a bit like their 'rebellious teenage' phase?

 

[Vagni]

Another point on languages is that we all speak with lots of different 'heads' on, on a daily basis at the drop of a hat and largely unconsciously.

When you talk to your mum is very different to how you talk to a bunch of mates down the pub. When you talk to a business client its different to how you talk to your children. It's still all the same English, using the phrases and vocabulary you have, but often very different.

Now add a different cultural background settled within this culture and it gets even more interesting!! A Pakistani friend of mine tried to explain to me once that he has two heads, in his words: his English-Pakistani head that talks to his mates and his girlfriend etc. and his 'Good Pakistani Boy' head that he uses with his parents and grandparents at home! Each one is like a different person!

 

[simonh]

Not all individuals from these races are the same, so just as some humans are more id, ego or superego driven than others, some Elves might have a somewhat functional ego or id while others have none at all. However I think abnormally highly developed Aldryami egos would likely be equivalent to a very suppressed human one. An Aldryami with a human-grade ego or id would be unable to function properly in Aldryami society at all.

Simon Hibbs

 

[andyl]

Humans are a lot more diverse and regionalistic in their cultures, they fight amongst each other far more than the Elder Races ever have - this results in even more diversity and cultures. Humans are also shorter lived than many Elder Races, so their language is probably more susceptible to change.

True - but humans are patterned after Grandfather Mortal just like the Elves and Trolls (and the rest of the humanoid races). Presumably there is some mythic reason why humans turned out shorter lived, with more fractured societies and more squabbling, and more languages than all the other humanoid races.

 

[simonh]

True - but humans are patterned after Grandfather Mortal just like the Elves and Trolls (and the rest of the humanoid races). Presumably there is some mythic reason why humans turned out shorter lived, with more fractured societies and more squabbling, and more languages than all the other humanoid races.

We are the middle people - we stand at the balance point of the universe containing all things and all potentials in (very roughly) equal measure. As a result we have the capacity to act in more different ways than the elder races.

From the Daka Fal cut writeup talking about wanderer, the first human: "His origin was held in common by many gods so that he contained some of all the world within him, and so he could work for all of the gods."

Whereas the elder races were each created by one god and embody that god's nature and powers.

It's also the case that different humans in different parts of Glorantha have different origins. It seems to be that humanity is a kind of steady state that many other beings have naturally evolved to in parallel.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Exubae]

My main bugbear is with the Uzs, they seem equally diverse as humans, there cults varying between local for example:
Blue Moon Plateau, Kormodal/Ignorance, and Dagor Inkarth - all have different dominant cults (The Ignorance trolls are even dominated by a Male leader...) and are from wildly different enviroments and have wildly differing neighbouring cultures.
I assume their diet is going to vary as well, you don't get many yellow flavoured fighting stick people in central Genertela.
You would have thought some language drift would have occured since time began.

The other thing his how does the Dwarf language cope with NEW (his beard trembling at the thought) things. I suppose the simpliest way is to give it a numerical designator or state its component parts (a bit like German ie Fernsprechapparat...Remote Speaking Apparatus.. Telephone)
...I do like the idea of running a Mostali/Paranoia crossover, a trickster prettending to be the awakened concious mind of the world machine...
The World Machine is your friend... its probably been done before

Elves, although they communicate more through Aldrya's life web, I thought their may have been some drift in language between the continents, once again their environments vary remarkably.
In a way Aldryami is the one language that I thought might grow and mutate more than any other, even human languages.

 

[simonh]

@Exubae

Mostali do have regional differences in their governance, plus several heresies are fairly widespread among them. Aldryami are also as diverse as their forests, most obviously there are big differences between Disciduous, Evergreens and Tropical Aldryami. However within each group I think they are all enormously more more homogenous in religion, outlook and personality than you'd ever find within human cultures and each regional Troll, Mostali or Aldryami culture is likely less variable over time than human ones.

I have to admit that Trolls appear to be the easiest of the elder races to empathise with. Maybe humans are more dominated by our Id than we like to think :wink:

Simon Hibbs