non-Glorantha MRQ

[andakitty]

I have to disagree with that last. I don't think WOTC helped the situation at all, and Chaosium would have been about the same. I have mixed feelings about the Avalon Hill part in it. I have always felt that they were never that involved or interested, really, not even at the end. RQ3 and Powers & Perils always came across to me as half hearted. RQ Slayers might have done better, it was rather minimalist rules-wise, and was/is an interesting take on rpgs. We will never know, 'cause AH got eaten by you-know-who. I really wish the WOTC crew had just kept their thumbs out of everything. Shoot, they almost killed rpgs with the card gaming craze alone. I don't think that was good for rpgs in any way, shape, or form. That's just me, right or wrong.

Rant over.

 

[atgxtg]

I'll agree with you that MtG has done more damage than good to the gaming world. But, if TSR were still around, we wouldn't be seeing a new version of RQ now. There are a lot of RPGs and baord games that TSR swallowed up and buried.

Yeah, AH did a lousy job of supporting RQ. THat is part of the reason why RQ3 died. THat and the fact that AH pretty much stopped the Glorantha line. Chasoium had a whole group of RQ devotees that wanted to know what was going to happen next, and we had to suffer though years of reprinted RQ2 adventures. AH ended up killing of the Bond RPG too.

 

[andakitty]

Yeah, TSR was nasty sometimes.

 

[atgxtg]

Clunky? How can any game based on BRP be "clunky"? Maybe you mean just single elements of the game which you think have been clunky, or? (eg I think RQ3 had some very "clunky" rule elements in it, but the basic system was as easy and elegant as is BRP always)

When it is used to do things in a way contray to what BRP was designed for. Any/every game in existience is designed to do certain things. As you push outside of the "sweet spot" and into the fringes, the game breaks down. All games do this, they just vary and to when and how.

RQ/BRP was designed around mimicing SCA combats, and as such does a reasonably decent good of mirroring such fights (perhaps too good, that is how the fumble chart got so convoluted and comical). What it wasn't designed to do was handle large scale first fights (no non lethal damage rules in RQ), or character that can throw around trucks, or keepingh track on ENDURANCE points used to power abilities. Picture grafing on HERO SYSTEMS's superpower rules over a GURPS like girrty core rules and you get a rought idea of what Super WOlrd was like. Basically, the rules were forced onto BRP and while they sort of worked, they didn't work well, or as easily as normal RQ.

Another problem is that in a super setting, character abilities can vary by quite a bit moe than in a typical fantasy setting. THis would eventually lead to situations where you skilled normal (Batman-type) character gets hit by the villian that can punch through tanks. In the comics, that sort of hit will lay the hero out cold. In Super World that sort of hit will leave the character laidd out cold-in a slab at the morgue!


Just at the fuzzy end of what BRP was made to handle. Even in regular RQ a punch from a strong character has around a 50% chance of breaking a limb. Imagine a punch from a superstrong character.

 

[andakitty]

Excuse me, I don't do superhero, but wouldn't superattacks be countered by superdefenses? I mean, take Marvel comics. Hulk hit Richard Reed, but Richard not there, at least that part of him. So every body else is so much hamburger, our heroes and villains beat on each other. I don't understand why this works with Hero, not with Superworld. Maybe I'll get my WoW out and see if I can see your point. :?

 

[Enpeze]

When it is used to do things in a way contray to what BRP was designed for.

I think BRP is able to designed to simulate the most RP situations (except toon like RP) All you have to do is to adjust the rules a little bit to the setting. Which have been done a dozen times with BRP. I have used the BRP system in SciFi, Horror and Fantasy adventures since 20 years and it worked always perfectly. Other systems I know dont do the job as well as BRP. I played
-WFRP1&2 (not very good rule design but excellent setting)
-Rolemaster, Mers (too complex)
-WoD (interesting setting but I hate the rules)
-Shadowrun (a big mistake )
-Gurps (good rule design similar to BRP but too many rules)
-Midgard (a german RP which plays like a complicated mixture between AD&D and RQ. But it has IMO one of the best fantasy settings out there)
-D&D (shudder, 2 years waste of time)

Each time I returned to BRP. Its just the best and most intuitive system around. It is able to simulate everything I want from a RP and until now I found now satisfying replacement for BRP. I dont know much about some of the newer systems like feng shui or Qui. But they seems to simulate a type of "manga" style. (which I dont like)

RQ/BRP was designed around mimicing SCA combats, and as such does a reasonably decent good of mirroring such fights (perhaps too good, that is how the fumble chart got so convoluted and comical).

That was a good one.

What it wasn't designed to do was handle large scale first fights (no non lethal damage rules in RQ), or character that can throw around trucks, or keepingh track on ENDURANCE points used to power abilities. Picture grafing on HERO SYSTEMS's superpower rules over a GURPS like girrty core rules and you get a rought idea of what Super WOlrd was like. Basically, the rules were forced onto BRP and while they sort of worked, they didn't work well, or as easily as normal RQ.

Another problem is that in a super setting, character abilities can vary by quite a bit moe than in a typical fantasy setting. THis would eventually lead to situations where you skilled normal (Batman-type) character gets hit by the villian that can punch through tanks. In the comics, that sort of hit will lay the hero out cold. In Super World that sort of hit will leave the character laidd out cold-in a slab at the morgue!
Just at the fuzzy end of what BRP was made to handle. Even in regular RQ a punch from a strong character has around a 50% chance of breaking a limb. Imagine a punch from a superstrong character.

Now I know what you mean. Well then I think this is quite different to my own POV a good RP game should work. Foremost for me there should be a quite realistic world. So if Batman is hit seriously from some superduper villain you described he should be dead. Thats it. If the death of a superhero is not possible, the game would not be interesting for me. So I am more for x-men style in which the characters are sometimes dying, than for the older comic stories like superman or spiderman.

 

[atgxtg]

Excuse me, I don't do superhero, but wouldn't superattacks be countered by superdefenses? I mean, take Marvel comics. Hulk hit Richard Reed, but Richard not there, at least that part of him. So every body else is so much hamburger, our heroes and villains beat on each other. I don't understand why this works with Hero, not with Superworld. Maybe I'll get my WoW out and see if I can see your point. :?

THey are, if you got the right defenses. You have to remember, this is a RQ deriative, so the results of combat can be a bit more lethan than in other superhero RPGS. Reed Richards has some defenses to help counter (or at least mitiage) an hit from the Hulk, but Moonknight is in serious trouble if he got hit. Sure he would probably dodge/avoid the attack, but in RQ, he is eventually going to blow a dodge roll and take a 1D3+10D6 (just an example, I haven't calulated the Hulks db in RQ) hit. Guess what that does to a character like MK.

Another example would be what would happen to Batman if someone opened up on him with a sub-machine gun. THe possibility of the Batman being pumped full of bullet holes and expiring is a real possiblity.

As I remember it, Super World ran more like the real world with super powers than a 4 color comic. I can dig it out, though, and find some better examples of what I mean.

Basically, unless the defender has an ability to counter the super attack you wind up with RQ style results.

 

[andakitty]

OK, I can see that. I just don't have any other knowledge of supers games to compare. By what you say I assume they usually give loads of hit points or otherwise make PC's very hard to hurt. I think Champions (the only supers game I ever was a player in) has a stun system with a point of damage per so much stun taken. I remember being outraged when one of the NPCs was hit with a swinging log trap, shook it off, and walked away. I don't remember anything else, that being in 1986. I do know it pretty much turned me off the genre.

Also, don't guys like Batman and Iron Man have REAL GOOD armor?
Oh, anyway, with that Champions game resurfacing in my memory I think I begin to understand what you were getting at. That you need some way game mechanics wise to keep the homicide rate low, so supers games can't really thrive with any sort of realistic game mechanics? Or something like that?

 

[atgxtg]

Also, don't guys like Batman and Iron Man have REAL GOOD armor?
Oh, anyway, with that Champions game resurfacing in my memory I think I begin to understand what you were getting at. That you need some way game mechanics wise to keep the homicide rate low, so supers games can't really thrive with any sort of realistic game mechanics? Or something like that?

Iron Man does. Batman is wearing tights. Generally, in most Superhero RPGs the ruyles of reality are sacrificed in order to simulate the "reality" of the comics. THhis is gnerally a good thing-but can catch some people off guard-especially those who are unfamiliarr with comic books.

But that is a far cry from what RQ/BRP was designed to do, so it doesn't handle supers as well as some other RPGs. On the other hand, most suerphero RPGs don't do a good job handling more low powered settings (HERO being on of the few exceptions).

 

[andakitty]

Speaking of Batman and armor, have you seen 'Batman Begins'? His uniform is high-tech battle armor, not tights, in this version. The kind of thing to help make BRP more friendly to the genre, perhaps. I never liked supers much, I just want to see more folks playing non-WOTC games, whatever the genre.

 

[atgxtg]

Speaking of Batman and armor, have you seen 'Batman Begins'? His uniform is high-tech battle armor, not tights, in this version. The kind of thing to help make BRP more friendly to the genre, perhaps. I never liked supers much, I just want to see more folks playing non-WOTC games, whatever the genre.

Yeah, I have also seen the Michale Keaton movies where they did something similar in reguard to armoring the batsuit (and Batman Beyond, where it is essentially Iron Bat ).

I like superhero rpgs. If done right they can be very entertaining and challenging. THe hard part is making sure the players are thinking like heros and not like a D&D party out on a dungeon crawl. Super RPGs tend to be less lethal, but that goes with the setting. Heckif the comics were realsitic all the heroes would be long dead, well except for those who started that way.

 

[andakitty]

Oh, not necessarily. I think how hit points and so on work reflect the writer's preference more than reality, playability, or any other single consideration. Us players just got to find the best fit, you know?

 

[HyrumOWC]

Iron Man does. Batman is wearing tights.

Actually, even in the mainstream comic he's considered to be wearing armor, which is a mix of Kevlar and Nomex.

Hyrum.

 

[atgxtg]

Iron Man does. Batman is wearing tights.

Actually, even in the mainstream comic he's considered to be wearing armor, which is a mix of Kevlar and Nomex.

Hyrum.

Now. But like all old time heroes, he's been retconned a bit. Even the armor sort of varies by writer and uniform.

In most super RPGs it doesn't really matter much anyway. THe guys packing guys are the easy ones. It's they guys who carry lamposts, trucks, and trains that you gotta worry about if you are Batman. A Kevlar vest might stop a 9mm, but it isn't going to help much against the 9pm crosstown bus.

 

[andakitty]

Supers get kind of silly anyway, though. Spiderman, in the first movie, holding a cable car, in one hand, with all that tonnage on two shoulder joints and a wrist and a couple elbows. And he isn't one of the STRONG superheroes. :shock:

Unfortunately or otherwise, this level of suspension of disbelief ruins the genre for me. Lots of folks love it, though. My wife for one. :roll: And that's OK with me.

 

[HyrumOWC]

Supers get kind of silly anyway, though. Spiderman, in the first movie, holding a cable car, in one hand, with all that tonnage on two shoulder joints and a wrist and a couple elbows. And he isn't one of the STRONG superheroes. :shock:

And the fact that he can climb walls and shoot webbing from his wrists doesn't bother you?

Hyrum.

 

[andakitty]

Well, duh. You expect me to list ALL the silliness? :roll: :wink:

 

[atgxtg]

Well, duh. You expect me to list ALL the silliness? :roll: :wink:

No more silly than Giants, Dragons, raise from the dead spells, or what not.

I had this discussion a few years back with a friend of mine. He though playing super heroes was stupid. THen latter on that night, I watched as he drank a potion of elongation, another character went invisble, a third flew and threw fireballs, and the last wore a belt of giant strength and was under the protection of a stone skin.

Anyone who plays fantasy RPGs wih monsters and magic can't take the sillyness moral high ground against supers. Its just two sides of the same coin.

 

[andakitty]

Except I'm not serious about it. I just prefer and enjoy a different kind of silly...which I admit can be pretty bad. No moral high ground intended. It's similar to unexplained phenomena, you know? Some people laugh at the idea of ghosts, but watch out if you make skeptical sounds about UFOs. And vice versa, of course. Me? I'm all for silly emancipation.

 

[Utgardloki]

Just WHY did Superman think it was a good idea to wear such a bizarre costume to fight crime?

Granted, when I ran a superhero game, and gave a player a superhero with powers like Superman's (except lower scale, and the character had black skin), the player wanted to change the costume I designed to a pinstripe suit. Now can you imagine a guy, flying through the air in a pin stripe suit, throwing trucks around and bashing through stone walls?

I have some ideas for having superheroes in bizarre costumes being accepted. My favorite one, which might work for a RQ world, is that instead of painting shields, knights painted their armor to keep track of who was whom. When armor because obsolete, the patterns were switched over to their clothes, which were registered in heraldry documents. Part of the quest would be to gain enough prestige to earn your own official costume.