Nolo'Tar and Flyer

[Alexb83]

Perhaps because the Earth Alliance was to blame for the whole thing in the first instance? Putting a historically bad commander in a first contact situation with a vastly superior alien race (despite warnings from others)...
And perhaps because the Minbari stopped short of Genocide in the end.

History is written by the victors, but I doubt even Clark's regime could put a positive spin and call the E-M war a victory and start rewriting history; not only did the Minbari not start the war, they finished it, as Captain Sheridan's dad would say.

All in all though it comes back to judging an alien race along the lines of Human morality. To the Minbari the war was completely justified at the time.

 

[emperorpenguin]

History is written by the victors, but I doubt even Clark's regime could put a positive spin and call the E-M war a victory and start rewriting history; .

They did! Watch "And Now For A Word", the interviewer reminds Sheridan "We did win the Minbari war, they surrendered"

 

[Da Boss]

Probably right - but didn't the Minbari commit genocide at least once before- the Garmak?
Comes back to the point about arrogance and your percieved place in the galaxy - to the Minbari - one of their race (however exalted) was worth more than an entire species?
I agree they thought it was justified - but not that it was any less evil than those carried out by the mentioned races.
Again your point is most valid - the winners dictate the history and the Vorlons and their chosen races did win............

 

[Alexb83]

Well, I'm sure in the past wars have been started over far less than the unjustified murder of a races' most exalted leader, even here on earth. Just look at the death of Archduke Ferdinand (certainly not the /real/ reason, but the public face of one of the reasons for the Great War)

Remember, Dukhat was more the Minbari than just any other Minbari - he was the best of their entire race, revered by every caste, and on a mission of peace he was murdered by savage aliens.

They probably viewed the whole exercise (more vehemently) than they did their reprisals against the Streib - showing another race not to mess with the Minbari. Ever

 

[Da Boss]

Again you are right, to a point, - war is one thing - systamatic and planed genocide is another! Apparently the Garmak Empire was wiped out - their homeworld was devoid of life..............apparently the same was to happen to humans - "Kill them all"
My point is that that is as evil an act as the Centauri mass drivers being used on the Narn.
I am sure a good part of the Warrior Caste were quite pleased with the chance to put the one of the lesser races in their place -be they in civilian populations or fighting them in battleships.
Civilian are usually part of wars but the minbari go that step further...........extermination. Justification can be made for any act - does not make it any less evil!
In any case it did not work as a threat - alot of the EA post war military thoughts seemed to be - build bgger and better ships so that next time the playing field will be even. I get the impression that many in the EA were fully expecting another confrontation at some point.
anyway its just a game.................

 

[Alexb83]

Well, no race is perfect. In their defence, the Minbari stopped short, and on balance they're pretty good.

I don't know where the facist overtone for the Warrior caste comes from - I dont think in the series that the Minbari ever refer to anyone as a 'lesser race'. The outlook of the Religious caste is much more humanistic and G'kars teachings mirror it quite well 'we are all here to save each other'.

Well, to a certain extent Mongoose have carried over the Hubris of the EA quite nicely (although perhaps not in game mechanics) - somehow the Earth politicians span it so that the general populace (even the military!) think they /actually beat the Minbari/ (the rare gem of sense comes from the people who actually survived the battle of the line), rather than the truth that we know from the series (that the Minbari really were about to complete the genocide, but came to their senses).

So when it's said in S3 or so by Clarkists that 'oh, if we refought the war it would go differently', they're still deluding themselves.

Just look at the fluff for the Neroon from the Armageddon book 'EA commanders think of this as the last gasp from a dying race'. Meanwhile the Minbari are entering a renaissance of technological and cultural reform with the advent of the ISA and Vorlon technologies...

 

[captainsmirk]

They only "came to their senses" because they discovered they that humans apparently had Minbari souls and thus killing them would be breaking their law against killing other Minbari (which they would eventually do literally anyway...).

Hardly showing real compassion...

Several members of the Grey Council (Delenn included) are shown having reservations about the genocide, but until faced with the evidence about the souls most of them seem resigned to having to carry out the annihilation of humankind.

And their the ones in power! The only ones who can stop it from happening!

They wouldn't have stopped of their own volition, without the incentive of breaking one of their cardinal laws (one actually written by a human...).


Nick

 

[Da Boss]

Well, no race is perfect. In their defence, the Minbari stopped short, and on balance they're pretty good.

I don't know where the facist overtone for the Warrior caste comes from - I dont think in the series that the Minbari ever refer to anyone as a 'lesser race'. The outlook of the Religious caste is much more humanistic and G'kars teachings mirror it quite well 'we are all here to save each other'.
..

Ys they stopped short - that time and as pointed pt in the reply by the good Captain it had nothing to do with any goodness or compassion -rather that Minbarir may be dying. Also my other point is they had done it before!!! For whatever reason and I don't think we are told (certainly not in the Centauri factbook) - and yes they maybe "good" some of the time but they are capable of ultimate evil as anyone else was my point.
Arrogance fo the Warrior race - maybe I was reading too much into the way the warriors acted spoke but that was the way it came across to me and yes the Religious caste usually balanced it - but not when they were screaming for the extermination of whole races...but thats religion for you
Yes the Minbari are reaping the rewards following the victory of their Patrons.

Have fun!

 

[emperorpenguin]

Well, no race is perfect. In their defence, the Minbari stopped short, and on balance they're pretty good.

I don't know where the facist overtone for the Warrior caste comes from - I dont think in the series that the Minbari ever refer to anyone as a 'lesser race'. ...

As the others said if Valen's sould had not been in Sinclair's body they'd not have stopped

The Minbari (especially in Season 1 when they were interesting because they were dark and secretive, as opposed to the tree hugging hippies of later seasons) appeared full of hubris themselves, Londo says so in ITB.
Look at the Minbos in Seasons 1 & 2 they are full of themselves "I would answer if I accepted your authority" etc

 

[pwrserge]

There is no Valen, no Valen's soul. It was all Sinclair. Valen was not 'reborn' into Jeff, he always WAS Jeff. Valen was an alias created by Sinclair in order to interact with the Minbari.

B5 was very careful in keeping the idea of souls very vague. Let's not forget that the way that the Minbari "tested" for souls was with the Triluminary. A device designed to respond to Sinclair and his DNA! Thus, anybody genetically similar to Sinclair would have a "Minbari" soul, all the while; the only thing they were testing for was the presence of HUMAN DNA!

The Minbari are a bunch of hypocritical and self righteous fanatics. They damn near annihilated a race over a misunderstanding. Ducat himself told them to close the gun ports; HE knew it could be interpreted as an offensive action. Yet, they still blamed the humans. Why? Because it was easy, because stepping back and realizing that it was THEY who made a mistake is impossible. THEY are perfect, all the lesser races are exactly that LESSER. This arrogance appears again during the opening of the Shadow war, and the Minbari civil war.

There is no good or evil race in Babylon 5, simply order and chaos. Both have the potential for good, and both have the potential for evil.

SERGE

 

[emperorpenguin]

There is no Valen, no Valen's soul. It was all Sinclair. Valen was not 'reborn' into Jeff, he always WAS Jeff. Valen was an alias created by Sinclair in order to interact with the Minbari.

B5 was very careful in keeping the idea of souls very vague. SERGE

I mostly agree, but I said valen's soul because to the Minbari that is what they had found........

Mostly vague except for the Soul Hunters and their collections

 

[Alexb83]

Also my other point is they had done it before!!! For whatever reason and I don't think we are told (certainly not in the Centauri factbook) - and yes they maybe "good" some of the time but they are capable of ultimate evil as anyone else was my point.

How canonical is that? I have to say, much of what has supposedly happened pre- and post-series in the novels (apparently) is a bit questionable.

 

[Alexb83]

The Minbari are a bunch of hypocritical and self righteous fanatics. They damn near annihilated a race over a misunderstanding. Ducat himself told them to close the gun ports; HE knew it could be interpreted as an offensive action. Yet, they still blamed the humans. Why? Because it was easy, because stepping back and realizing that it was THEY who made a mistake is impossible. THEY are perfect, all the lesser races are exactly that LESSER. This arrogance appears again during the opening of the Shadow war, and the Minbari civil war.

I don't see how they're fanatical, except where their leader is murdered. To the warrior caste, approaching with weapons open handed is an honourable tradition, how could it possibly be misconstrued? Remember that the Minbari rarely interact with other races. (Dukhat never had a chance to explain his reasoning either). From their PoV, their greatest leader had just been murdered by savages for no reason.
As for hypocritical? Where did that come from? Or the notion that they consider themselves perfect and others less than they are? This is completely at odds with established dialogue.

 

[Da Boss]

[\quote]
I don't see how they're fanatical, except where their leader is murdered. [/quote]

Yeah, killing every single person from one race (and probably their pets!) - thats all about being wise and responsible eldar race............didn't we also see fanatical off shoots of the Warrior Caste who wanted to start wars............I don't know how canon the Centauri factbook is and I don't have the Minbari one?

Your own post asks and answers your own question -ie:

Or the notion that they consider themselves perfect and others less than they are? From their PoV, their greatest leader had just been murdered by savages for no reason.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree - I felt that they were arrogant, self righteous and superior (not without reason, true), with a few notable exceptions.

have fun

 

[captainsmirk]

There is no Valen, no Valen's soul. It was all Sinclair. Valen was not 'reborn' into Jeff, he always WAS Jeff. Valen was an alias created by Sinclair in order to interact with the Minbari.

B5 was very careful in keeping the idea of souls very vague. Let's not forget that the way that the Minbari "tested" for souls was with the Triluminary. A device designed to respond to Sinclair and his DNA! Thus, anybody genetically similar to Sinclair would have a "Minbari" soul, all the while; the only thing they were testing for was the presence of HUMAN DNA!

At the time as far as they knew it had been reborn into Sinclair. And I'm sure they mentioned something about Minbari souls being reborn in humans.

The Triluminary always amused me. It was a device that was never actually made...

Delenn gives it to Sinclair when he travels back in time to become Valen. 'Valen' then gives it to the Minbari who keep safe for a thousand years. It then ends up in Delenn's hands, she uses it for her transformation. Later she gives it Sinclair to take back in time... and so on and so forth...


Nick

 

[Alexb83]

Your own post asks and answers your own question -ie:
Or the notion that they consider themselves perfect and others less than they are? From their PoV, their greatest leader had just been murdered by savages for no reason.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree - I felt that they were arrogant, self righteous and superior (not without reason, true), with a few notable exceptions.

We see offshoots of every race in the series try and start wars - what matters is, on balance, the race and not the individuals. I don't see how responding to a muderous race (from their PoV) as savages and taking revenge amounts to the kind of facism that people seem to be assigning to them? Did they go too far? Perhaps from a human standpoint, but these are aliens, responding according to their own moral code, not ours
Nor their insular nature - Minbari just keep to themselves, and protect their space/race very vigorously. You don't see them going out shooting other peoples' leaders, or invading homeworlds and subjugating entire races

 

[Da Boss]

Did they go too far? Perhaps from a human standpoint,
Nor their insular nature - Minbari just keep to themselves, and protect their space/race very vigorously. You don't see them going out shooting other peoples' leaders, or invading homeworlds and subjugating entire races

Sorry, but yes genocide is going "too far" ! not sure how it can be argued otherwise! protecting their sapce is one thing - they could have devestated EA fleet and "explained" and/or "threatened more" but no - "kill them all"

I took it from their actions and words they believe other races are inferior but don't judge themsleves enough by thoses same standards.........yes all the others are guilty - but the Minbari as as bad - they just don't believe they are!

They don't subjigate races because that is beneath them - they anhillate them..............

have fun

 

[Alexb83]

Well, so far as the show, they never actually annihilate anyone whether Sinclair/Valen's discovery was the sole motivator or not I leave to you (like you say, several of them had expressed their reservations amongst the grey council).

They'd even gone so far as to arrange secret peace talks, but the Centauri scuppered those, and further confirmed the Minbari's belief that they were dealing with barbarians who'd scourned the olive branch...

 

[captainsmirk]

That's just the point, they expressed reservations, but didn't act on them until supplied with some form of excuse other than the fact that genocide is wrong... They were sort of saying, yes this is wrong but were going to do it anyway. Which in my mind is worse than someone who doesn't believe what their doing is wrong...

The very decision to set out to commit genocide, even if they didn't actually finally do it doesn't excuse the setting out to actually do it. I mean you may feel like killing someone who who wrongs you very badly but would actually set out to do it (ignoring whether or not you ultimately do do it)?

Overall I'm not trying to say that the Minbari are all evil, just that they are no better than anyone else when you get down to it. Which in my opinion is pretty damn realistic.


Nick

 

[Frohike]

They'd even gone so far as to arrange secret peace talks, but the Centauri scuppered those, and further confirmed the Minbari's belief that they were dealing with barbarians who'd scourned the olive branch...

This was orchestrated by Delen alone and not the Grey Council as a whole so use this as an example is flawed.