Next Generations and a black, black future...

[Flecha]

I just want to make a little reflection here, a little critique on society, still a pessimistic one... I'm reading through the previews of Runequest, since I'm counting by the passing hours to its release, and caught a phrase in the "latest news" that a first scared me a bit: "written with the 21st Century gamer in mind". Ok, it seemed like a noble goal, but still scred me...

Reading the preview I found out instantly why. Quoting the preview: "the game has been updated and modified dramatically, simplifying and modernising it. Character creation involves less mathematics and combat involves nothing more than simple addition and substraction". And there it was, I added two and two and reached rather bleak conclusions.

Of course, do not undestand this at all as critique to Mongoose or their writers; in no way it is. What I want to note here is that the impression we all, 25+ age old players (ok, ok, 30+ age old), have of the new generations, what will comprise the so called 21st Century gamer, the ones who are growing in their early teens with the shadow of D20, is a quite poor one. I mean, do really the men and women of the future, the ones who supposedly will leave in a more technified society and blah, blah, will need everything simplified because their math level (to put and example) is so poor?

And yes, over the last decades, the educational systems of the world are decaying fast, not just because they teach less, but much more because they teach worse. I speak from my country's (Spain) example, were several educational reformings have turned our children into plain idiots. I remember me reading all kind of books (all kind, my friends) at seven, and that was normal comparing with other children back then. Nowadays they get out of primary, with 12 or so, reading slowly, word by word, and understanding half of it with any luck. Of course, there's no single child withouth console, least they would feel inferior to others, or some other psicological idiocy.

The point is that what we understand as 21st century future people is people unable of doing anything complicated or laborious, used to have everything already done for them. And that's a very sad and dark future, and what is worse, a dangerous one.

I just hope my grandchildren will thrive a little, you know, get to be judges at Mega-City 1 or so... :wink:

 

[t-tauri]

Working out 20% and 5% of numbers mentally is beyond today's children. Hell, most of them can't add or subtract in their heads, never mind multiply or divide.

I wonder what they'd make of Chivalry and Sorcery.

 

[Etepete]

While I agree with you completely about society (and I think that one of the big causes is the plethora of private schools and the hollowing out of the state. If we want a thriving, developing society, we need to pay for it.), I myself welcome the change in RPG:s. No reason to put a lot of calculations into gaming, they do take time. But this is part of a more general preference for streamlined gaming on my part.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I agree with you about the state of education, but I have to state that I am one of the people who want rid of maths in my RPGs, 20% calculations, and all the rest of it. I want to PLAY the game, not calculate it. Reduce the system to near-invisibility, get rid of every unneccessary number and stage of play. I couldn't be bothered with the old RQ3 system these days (RQ2 would be OK, but still has some unnecessary stages in character creation).

Wulf

 

[TrippyHippy]

Christ, having a go at Teachers whilst I am trying to relax on my half-term break....thanks!

Honestly, if the people who criticise education were actually forced to try and teach a class about a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g, I'm fairly certain they'd be less glib in their views about making the world a better place.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Christ, having a go at Teachers whilst I am trying to relax on my half-term break....thanks!

The problem, in my experience (I work in local guvmint, in contact with the Education dept every day) isn't the teachers as such, it's the lack of practical use the subjects get out of school. Kids just don't need maths or english these days, they have the internet instead, where decent intelligent skill use is frowned upon...

Wulf

 

[TrippyHippy]

Well considereing they're in the process of rejigging the entire Science scheme of work this year, explicitely to be more in tune with "practical, consumer" demands, it appears that your observations have already been discussed at great length.

I have worked both in private business and local government, prior to becoming a teacher. I honestly believe that most people do not have the foggiest about just how challenging and time consuming the Teaching profession is these days.

 

[t-tauri]

Christ, having a go at Teachers whilst I am trying to relax on my half-term break....thanks!

Hey, why do you think I'm posting on here in the middle of the day. We science teachers have to stick together. 8)

It's the maths teachers fault!

 

[TrippyHippy]

Hmm...yes.

Perhaps we should set up a Teachers-Who-Like-RuneQuest Anonymous group or something! 8)

 

[Archer]

I have to agree with the assessment. As a GM that started playing RPGs in 1982, when there was not much in the way of computers, or no internet for that matter, when there was no VHS and DVD was a dream, when books provided entertainment, I have seen the change in the attitude of the players I have GMed for.
Where I live there are very few player my age (32), and to get my RPG kicks regularly, I play with several groups, only one with players my age, and two groups of younger players. The attitudes could not be more different.
The older players are ready to put work into learning rules, learning the setting, care about playing a character with depth and personality.
The younger players barely wants to learn the rules, hardly wants to put the work into creating a character that has personality. They prefer the games where you choose an archetype and have a ready-to-run character (L5R, Vampire, D&D).

That said, I still prefer simple systems, because it allows me as a GM, with limited time, to quickly prepare for a game sessions, and I can still focus on the characters and the overall storyarc, not the rules. That said, I still will GM complex and slower systems (role-master for example), it is nothing I shy away from, even though I do not prefer them.

 

[Harshax]

I don't know about the posters theory. While it is true that in our days, fast-adding/division in the head was a sign of a agile mind, and often lead to such interesting hobbies as RPGs (where such skill was often necessary), it does not necessarily follow that those same skills are what the next generation will thrive on. There are always new things to be a geek about. Many of thoses subjects have inroads to our hobby, quite possibly more so than in our younger days, with the advent of the internet and global communities.

Of all the IT professionals I've met, I am consistently the youngest to have started programming amoung them. I was 10 or so when I picked up the Timex Sinclair 1000 and programmed Snake. Basic, however, is no more, just like so many things I've geeked over but are now obsolete and in hindsight pointless for having wasted so much time devoted to its mastery.

Yet I was a lackluster student, graduating with a C Average, and having failed Geometry.

Who knows what interesting subjects will be the pinnacle of geekdom for my daughter? While I'm going to insist that she be thoroughly fluent in those important core subjects: reading, writing, arithmetic; I won't insist that she have the same dedication to them that I had in my youth: before video games, the internet, chaos theory, ePrime, computers, digital art and rendering, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

The older players are ready to put work into learning rules, learning the setting, care about playing a character with depth and personality.

Now, personally, I see these ideas as polar opposites (well, not really, but effectively). When I see a set of rules, the first thing I want to ask is "Can I understand these rules enough after one speed-reading to play the game?" If not, forget it, I have better things to do. I've read so many rules sets, so many games, and so many settings, I want to get on with the other aspect of your statement - playing a character. Having to study and learn rules just gets in the way of that. The 'lighter' and simpler a ruleset that still allows me to achieve a realistic (for the setting) result, the better.

Strangely, I'm currently playing an Exalted Solar Dawn Caste, in one of the heaviest most complex systems on the market! BUt, in my defence, I have only ever read the details on Solars and my own character's rules, and have no real idea at all about the rest of the rules, or world...

Wulf

 

[Archer]

Well, I am fast approaching your point of view. I began playing RPGs in 82 with a game that used basic role-play. It was easy, fast, simple. Over the years I began running more and more complex systems, which culminated with Rolemaster. After that I once again began running simple systems, until d20 hit, and I got some new players to play with. Now, once more, I am going towards simpler systems. And this time around, I am beginning to feel like what you describe. I have read too many systems, too many settings etc. I just want something that is quick, simple, and allows me to play with as little preparations as possible.
Which is part of the reason why I so badly want to use RQ as generic system, to run all my campaigns with (even though that is probably an unrealistic thing to consider)...

As you say with your example about Exalted, there is also always exception to the rule.

 

[Flecha]

No problem with teachers at all, of course, I don't blame educators! Humans tend to think that what others do, must be easy, so I try to think the contrary, that every job takes its fair share of effort. I've met a good share of high school teachers over the years, and I know how hard (and even dangerous) education has became. The kids are less and less interested in work and learn, and more in hurting others and try drugs. That can't be a problem in schools, but a problem of society as a whole. And society I blame.

And IMO it's the fact that we are teaching our kids to just get all the quick benefit from everything, this western society is creating whole generations of little Mr. Scrooges. On the other hand, I deeply distrust education aimed to teach skills instead of knowledge; you'll end up with a lot of ignorant engineers, which is good for industry, but bad for society.

I mean, knowledge is the key to free will. An sage can take choose in much more freedom that an ignorant one.

About the streamlining of rpgs, I completely agree, I was complaining against the increasing stupidity of the new generations, not in the enhancement of roleplaying systems! In fact, my favorite system is HeroQuest, the "other" Glorantha game, , the brainchild of Greg Stafford and Robin D. Laws, which is by far the most narrative system in the market today, with so few math rules that people find it strange until they get used to it!

 

[tkdmitch]

My grandfather left school at 14 with no qualifications. This was not uncommon.

My mother clearly remembers teaching him how to do fractions when she was 15/16.

The idea that education is in terminal decline from some mythical golden age past is nonsense.

Mitch

 

[frobisher]

The idea that education is in terminal decline from some mythical golden age past is nonsense.

The Golden Age isn't when you're thinking it is, that's all

In the UK, certainly, you can paint it anyway you like, but the net result is that academic standards are dropping as pass rates "improve".

You just have to watch the Channel 4 Programmes in the "That'll Teach Them" series to see the changes starkly highlighted (For those who don't know, it involves putting modern, mostly brighter kids who've sat their GCSEs through a few weeks of 50's or 60's style schooling and sitting the requisite exams of the era. Almost all struggle...)

The difference is most starkly highlighted now at degree level, given the vastly increased numbers of admissions. Courses are simplified compared to how they were 20 years ago. And, and it's a big issue, the Universities now seem reluctant to through "paying customers" out on their arses for being deadweights. This is not to say that at the First and Upper Second end of Honours degrees they are not worth the same as they used to be, but the Two-Two and Third are cheapened beyond belief now. Ordinary Degrees really don't seem to happen anymore either...

 

[Flecha]

The idea that education is in terminal decline from some mythical golden age past is nonsense.

It's completely ilogical, indeed.

However, history works in cycles, there are better and worse periods. And certalinly education is declining from what was years ago. Obviously, what was years ago was better than middle-ages.... an so on.

 

[Flecha]

In the UK, certainly, you can paint it anyway you like, but the net result is that academic standards are dropping as pass rates "improve".

What is worse, in Spain they are adapting the model to the UK model, and we are experiencing the results, which is what I'm denouncing. In fact, all of the EU will do eventually, to approach the american system. And there we are, drifting towards the so called "globalization" and unique thought...

 

[homerjsinnott]

The older players are ready to put work into learning rules, learning the setting, care about playing a character with depth and personality.

Now, personally, I see these ideas as polar opposites (well, not really, but effectively). When I see a set of rules, the first thing I want to ask is "Can I understand these rules enough after one speed-reading to play the game?" If not, forget it, I have better things to do. I've read so many rules sets, so many games, and so many settings, I want to get on with the other aspect of your statement - playing a character. Having to study and learn rules just gets in the way of that. The 'lighter' and simpler a ruleset that still allows me to achieve a realistic (for the setting) result, the better.

Strangely, I'm currently playing an Exalted Solar Dawn Caste, in one of the heaviest most complex systems on the market! BUt, in my defence, I have only ever read the details on Solars and my own character's rules, and have no real idea at all about the rest of the rules, or world...

Wulf

I disagree strongly, While I dislike rule heavy systems I also dislike rule lite systems. The system is often and always should be, a reflection of the world. L5r for example. Rule lite doesn't always equal great world. And if a player can't be bothered to understand a medium rules system they, in my experience usually won't bother to learn about the world. A system should be flexible but with enough bones to add flesh to the world itself, the terminology of a system can do this. I point to the L5r duelling system which adds flavour to the world. A good system takes some of the boring decision making out of the refs hands, I feel that a rules lite system like Heroquest just hands it back to the ref. A good system can be tailored to suit the ref, adding and subtracting things from the system as they want. Rule lite can lead to 'but it was this bonus a month ago' [player cites example] or one size fits all syndrome, Rule heavy can slow play considerably.

So much as I hate to associate myself with the Blair monster, the third way is best.

To address the point about teaching, easy does'nt equal happy and we are being fooled and fooling ourselves into thinking it does.



I hope I haven't hijacked this thread too much.

 

[klingsor]

I was actually hoping for a somewhat simplified system so this might be good news. I do not mind the math but combat in RQ III always seemed a bit confusing compared with CoC – probably the system we are most familiar with and a largely simplified relative of the old RQ system as well.