Devilmountain
Mongoose
While we are on the subject of random world builders is there a random alien species builder in any of the books?
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PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
rust said:Results that contradict well established laws of nature.BP said:Broken?
Often, the well established laws of nature are first things that go out of the window when you observe the universe. It is amazing how little we actually know about even our own solar system.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Oh, and Traveller contradicts the well established laws of nature anyway! 
Devilmountain
Mongoose
PrinceYyrkoon said:Oh, and Traveller contradicts the well established laws of nature anyway!
Hehe
I don't play a role playing game for science and reality anyway. Just enough mumbo jumbo and tech speak to make me feel some verisimilitude and I'm good!
Well, I do.Devilmountain said:
True, I have to accept one or two "magic devices" to make my science
fiction settings possible, usually an FTL drive and the manipulation of
gravity, but beyond that I want my settings to be as plausible and con-
sistent and free of contradictions as possible.
So, no tiny planets with dense atmospheres, no portable laser weapons
in ground combat, no aliens that look and behave like Terran animals,
and so on. For me, it is a lot more fun to design my settings along the
lines of what is considered possible than to use the "(almost) anything
goes" approach.
But this is entirely a matter of taste. :wink:
Devilmountain
Mongoose
Rust, my tastes seem to parallel yours when it comes to fiction. I mean, if I'm reading sci-fi I sure as heck don't want anthropomorphic animals running around. And I tend to lean that way with role playing games too. Lately however I found too much attention to detail completely blasts past my player's heads so I fight myself to just let a lot of it go. The point for us is to all have fun, and sometimes, among my players, too much detail and fact checking just doesn't work out (hence, we are currently playing D&D)
And my upcoming Traveller Campaign I am putting together does have anthropomorphic alien animal species. I can barely stand myself, but I just feel a need to have them there.
by the way, how do tiny worlds have dense atmospheres...ever since using the world creation system I've been trying to figure that out.
And my upcoming Traveller Campaign I am putting together does have anthropomorphic alien animal species. I can barely stand myself, but I just feel a need to have them there.
by the way, how do tiny worlds have dense atmospheres...ever since using the world creation system I've been trying to figure that out.
Most of the UWPs of the worlds of the Third Imperium have been createdDevilmountain said:
with previous versions of Traveller, especially Classic Traveller.
These UWPs have become "canon", although many of them are the re-
sults of a design system that was much worse than that of Mongoose Tra-
veller, and created many absolutely implausible UWPs.
There have been attempts to replace the worst cases with somewhat mo-
re plausible data, but due to fandom politics these attempts failed - a
long and sad story.
So, you will find quite a lot of UWPs in official Traveller material that are
impossible to "retro-engineer" with Mongoose Traveller.
MGT has atmo based on size and 2d-7 with no atmo below size 2 (IIRC almost identical to CT) - so the smallest planet capable of a dense atmo is 4,800 km dia. (2.8% chance of the 11.1% chance to be that size ~1/315 chance?).
It might be a stretch over any extended time scale... but lots of natural events could occur that could cause such an oddity. Outside of our own solar system we have very little real data what-so-ever.
In fact, just this week the VLT made the very first direct measure of an exoplanet spectrum. Which is the first time any possible data on extrasolar atmos has been available.
4,800 km dia is about Mercury size - and I remeber that it orginally had no atmo possible according to my early books - a quick google yielded this[url]! Again, scientists often fail to take the complete system into account in the pratical application of theory...
Recently NASA used an impactor (rocket casing) on the moon - expecting a multi-mile high big plum to be able to scan - instead the relative little puff - because their scientists didn't know enough practical engineering to account for deformable geometry when calculating the effects of a collision!
The probabilites in the game mechanics are most likely out of wack (especially limiting to a curve based on only 11 numeric outcomes) - but otherwise, I don't find them outrageously unbelievable.
Of the things you mentioned: FTL/Gravitics/portable effective lasers - most especially terrestrial similiar aliens - I would find the tiny dense atmo planet the least stretch of believable...
It might be a stretch over any extended time scale... but lots of natural events could occur that could cause such an oddity. Outside of our own solar system we have very little real data what-so-ever.
In fact, just this week the VLT made the very first direct measure of an exoplanet spectrum. Which is the first time any possible data on extrasolar atmos has been available.
4,800 km dia is about Mercury size - and I remeber that it orginally had no atmo possible according to my early books - a quick google yielded this[url]! Again, scientists often fail to take the complete system into account in the pratical application of theory...
Recently NASA used an impactor (rocket casing) on the moon - expecting a multi-mile high big plum to be able to scan - instead the relative little puff - because their scientists didn't know enough practical engineering to account for deformable geometry when calculating the effects of a collision!
The probabilites in the game mechanics are most likely out of wack (especially limiting to a curve based on only 11 numeric outcomes) - but otherwise, I don't find them outrageously unbelievable.
Of the things you mentioned: FTL/Gravitics/portable effective lasers - most especially terrestrial similiar aliens - I would find the tiny dense atmo planet the least stretch of believable...
A lot of that data was generated by amateurly written basic programs and then damaged in storage and transmission back in the day... greatly exaggerating or falsely creating the flaws in the design system...rust said:
I don't find the design system too bad - but canon setting is a whole different ball of wax!
I like the d6 system - but generating tens of thousands of systems based on 2d6 is just, well... silliness! There is just simply not enough probability variation to come up with anything even remotely similiar to RW.
(sorry for editing the formating of your quotes rust - I like your delimited lines, how do you do that?)
P.S. this link provides a decent looking alternate world gen system...
Most definitely - part of the reason I have never played in the 3I (though its more the pet derived aliens to be surerust said:
) IIRC - a number of those odd systems come from faulty programming/transmission that generated UWP that were invalid even from the rules!That, and the fact that those rules should never have been used to generate the huge number of systems. When you get down to it only a mere handful of planets, much less solar systems are actually documented to any real level of detail... so predefining a 'universe' was really silly. The blame here lies perhaps in the ease computers can help people screw up on larger scales wih less effort!
When I first got a hold of CT Scouts I immediately made subsector/system generators (Timex Sinclair, TI-99/4a, Apple II and Commodore - I did as much progamming for Traveller as actual play) - but I typically only generated 4 subsectors for any given campaign (maybe 4 sectors total over those early years and different computers).
For my part not having any mechanic for dealing with 3D travel was always ironic - especially with orbital positions not being really accounted for. And the flat sectors is really just a hoot! I love Traveller - but when push comes to shove - it really falls flat in the one area it should excel! (pun intended!).
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I agree with RTT here. Unless there's a compelling campaign reason to keep the presence of star systems (and even the presence of GGs) a secret, it's reasonable to at least note which hexes have a star in them, and which of those have at least one gas giant.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Rather than some unusual result on random system generation table, theres much more to Traveller that is problematic when talking of the well established laws of nature.
I appreciate the two poles of opinion when, on the one hand, there is a desire for accuracy and believability, and, on the other, the acceptance of it as a game.
However, there are several glaring issues with the game which shoot down any thoughts of it actually obeying the natural laws of the universe.
Take, for instance, the fact that long distance travel, at any speed, produces time dilation issues for both the traveller and the stationary observer. This unfortunate detail makes the Third Imperium a complete work of handwavium.
Traveller looks like hard sf, with its cool red and black design, but its actually closer to Star Wars space opera than it is to real science. I dont think getting into discussions about accuracy is very beneficial, I think the issue is to accept those mechanics which fit best into your campaign.
I appreciate the two poles of opinion when, on the one hand, there is a desire for accuracy and believability, and, on the other, the acceptance of it as a game.
However, there are several glaring issues with the game which shoot down any thoughts of it actually obeying the natural laws of the universe.
Take, for instance, the fact that long distance travel, at any speed, produces time dilation issues for both the traveller and the stationary observer. This unfortunate detail makes the Third Imperium a complete work of handwavium.
Traveller looks like hard sf, with its cool red and black design, but its actually closer to Star Wars space opera than it is to real science. I dont think getting into discussions about accuracy is very beneficial, I think the issue is to accept those mechanics which fit best into your campaign.
Well - Star Wars was the inspiration behind Traveller IIRC...
And few would really call Traveller hard sci-fi (well, at least when hard pressed). And then only in comparison to other systems...
But a lot of folks want hard sci-fi in a solar system spanning context. So being 'realistic' upto a point is a valid discussion issue.
Different people have different lines where they will lay down their suspension of disbelief. If Traveller gravity worked like in the cartoons - many would react adversely (I would - but I still loved the old roadrunner cartoons). Yet, most of us are ok with Traveller using Gravitics...
Discussing various views - including 'accuracy' - is applicable - that's what discussion is for. For some, such is beneficial. I enjoy it - as long as respect for each other's right to express their opinions is maintained - it is healthy (even if not neccessarily productive).
And few would really call Traveller hard sci-fi (well, at least when hard pressed). And then only in comparison to other systems...
But a lot of folks want hard sci-fi in a solar system spanning context. So being 'realistic' upto a point is a valid discussion issue.
Different people have different lines where they will lay down their suspension of disbelief. If Traveller gravity worked like in the cartoons - many would react adversely (I would - but I still loved the old roadrunner cartoons). Yet, most of us are ok with Traveller using Gravitics...
Discussing various views - including 'accuracy' - is applicable - that's what discussion is for. For some, such is beneficial. I enjoy it - as long as respect for each other's right to express their opinions is maintained - it is healthy (even if not neccessarily productive).
True if you use the game and its setting as they are written, but it is notPrinceYyrkoon said:
really difficult to modify it in a way that results in a game and setting
which are at least as "hard" as, for example, Blue Planet or Transhuman
Space - and science fiction does rarely get harder than that.
And since Mongoose Traveller is not "married" to the Third Imperium set-
ting, but designed as a more generic "toolbox" with options for many dif-
ferent settings, I consider it fair game to use only those options which fit
into my concept of a plausible setting.
Real world style roleplay can be fun - I remember playing a Wild West RPG that was actually a blast (more fun than the spy ones). The nice thing being everything was easily defined and with simple game mechanics roleplay was real fine.
MGT would support such a system pretty easily... (and Firefly fans would eat it up )
Jump I don't mind, but I prefer gravitics to be limited to the highest normal TL. And I've never liked the 6G limited M-Drives. One day maybe I'll make this setting - but it requires a complete starship design and movement mechanic that is a lot more difficult to make playable and would likely lose compatibility with the existing system.
rust - are you playing with Gravtics and Jump? I know at least one board member has made a go at spacecraft without gravitics. Not sure if anyone used STL stellar travel...
MGT would support such a system pretty easily... (and Firefly fans would eat it up
)Jump I don't mind, but I prefer gravitics to be limited to the highest normal TL. And I've never liked the 6G limited M-Drives. One day maybe I'll make this setting - but it requires a complete starship design and movement mechanic that is a lot more difficult to make playable and would likely lose compatibility with the existing system.
rust - are you playing with Gravtics and Jump? I know at least one board member has made a go at spacecraft without gravitics. Not sure if anyone used STL stellar travel...
My setting uses the optional hyperdrive and gravitics, but gravitics are on-BP said:
ly used in starships, never in other vehicles, because the engines are ex-
tremely big and expensive.
I wanted to get rid of gravitics, but this would have complicated my setting,
especially the process of landing ("watering") on the ocean surface of a
water world.
