New stealth suggestion

[Burger]

Instead of having one stealth dice to roll to beat a target number, have a stealth dice pool. Each race gets a number of stealth dice, depending on their level of technology... for example EA Early Years get 1, League races get 1, Minbari/Drakh get 2, Shadows/Vorlons get 3. When trying to break stealth you roll your dice, and if any one of them beats the stealth rating of the target, you have passed and may fire as normal. You don't get any +/- modifiers to your roll or to the Stealth score of the target, but...

A successful Scouting roll will add a dice (or add 3 dice if it's a Leshath).
Being within 10" will add a dice.
Being over 20" will remove a dice (minimum 1).
Another of your ships has already successfully attacked the target this turn will add a dice.
Target is in a dust cloud removes a dice.
Target used Run Silent removes a dice.
Etc...

Of course balancing would be required so don't go all statistical on me. I'm just suggesting the basic idea, that rolling multiple dice has a lower standard deviation than just 1, and feels like you have more of a fair chance to pass (even if statistically it's the same). Getting to roll 3 dice hoping for a 6 is more exciting than rolling 1 hoping for 4+, IMO.

 

[Right Hand of God]

that's an interesting idea. If it is statistically the same does it make any difference though?

Would your pool of dice be usable each turn or each time you fire at a ship?

I do agree though it s more fun to roll 3 dice and hope for a 6

 

[Burger]

that's an interesting idea. If it is statistically the same does it make any difference though?

You answered that question yourself...

I do agree though it s more fun to roll 3 dice and hope for a 6

Fun is what it's all about!

The dice pool would be for each target. No sharing or saving dice.

 

[Right Hand of God]

yes it makes it more fun, what I meant was is it worth changing a game mechanic to increase the number of dice you roll so as to subjectively increase the vicarious fun attained whist keeping statistical chances of success the same

 

[Burger]

The whole point of playing the game is to have fun. So if a change makes the game more fun, then it is a good change IMO.

 

[Locutus9956]

I like it. I'd still prefer a stealth mechanic that wasnt hit or miss outright (thats what rolling to hit is for imho and having a second roll like that even with multiple dice just gets frustrating) but it WOULD be a vast improvement over the current version.

As a related idea though if I might take a leaf from my favourite game of the moment, Flames of War, how about a similar system with a very hard target number but every turn you DONT break stealth you get an extra dice next turn representing ongoing attempts to track and pin down the location of a target.

You could have it so:

Stealth roll needed: 6
Modifiers: +1 to roll at short range, -1 long range, +1 for ancient sensors, +1 if stealth already broken by another ship, -1 for gas clouds etc

Scouts under these rules would add a dice to the pool for the turn when successful, silent running would halve, rounding up the dice rolled for that turn.

Again this is a very basic idea but would mean that stealth would tend to be virtually impenetrable for the first couple of turns and then would start to collapse. It would be a big change to how the Minbari for example work but would I think make for a more interesting game.

 

[Burger]

Again this is a very basic idea but would mean that stealth would tend to be virtually impenetrable for the first couple of turns and then would start to collapse. It would be a big change to how the Minbari for example work but would I think make for a more interesting game.

Problem with that is that Minbari would always lose large games that can go on for 10+ turns, but always win small games which are over in 2-3 turns.

I did think of a special action "all power to scanners" which would give you an extra stealth dice when targetting a designated ship next turn, but you can't fire any weaons this turn.

 

[Ripple]

I like the idea in some ways but see some issues...

First issue is balance, specifically the die to beat stealth based on race. How would you balance this? Does Early EA get tougher ships because they beat stealth less? If a race has an advantage it has to be balanced by some negative, otherwise the game goes out the window.

It's not that I don't believe in the fluff, I do. High tech races might beat stealth more often...or be more affected by it depending on what you rely on. From a gaming perspective we already have issues with some special rules/initiative modifiers being unequal. Does access to the Guardian Array rule really balance with the Abbai Comm Disruptor or the EA's special missiles? Hate to add another layer of situational advantage to the pricing structure.

Come to think of it that may be my only issue with it. It is still all or nothing, which I don't like, but so much better than the current roll of a single die. It is so much harder to be REALLY unlucky on lots of dice at once. I think this would work as a solution to the fun issue.

Generally I like Burger's suggested rules...redundancy/bulk was good too and that came out of the same camp. Fixed the issues with Crit effects being to powerful early in a game without removing the 'I still have a chance if I get lucky' benefit. The current table you can still be completely hosed in the first turn by one lucky shot. Its less likely but still there and unfun when it happens. Burger gets my vote for Fun Czar...mainly cause us Americans seem obsessed with making Czar's for things lately.

- the other issue I was trying to define are what are the secondary advantages to stealth compared to other defense systems and does this work well with bringing stealth into line with interceptors, dodge, etc. (or at least maintaining the current status).

Ripple - Czar of needlessly wordy posts...

 

[Triggy]

Personally (because I'm so statistically minded) - if the odds are the same then I wouldn't change anything, particularly for a more complicated mechanism. I like the principle of the idea but wouldn't go for it as it doesn't address the main complaint of Stealth rolls being all or nothing.

 

[No. 1 Bear]

I really like the idea balancing would be an issue, but many people just like rolling lots of dice (me) . On the idea of a more dice, each race on their technological status could have a dice pool, representative of level. They could then choose to put all of their efforts into spotting one ship by using all of their dice (technology). Don't know if this would work but its an idea.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Personally (because I'm so statistically minded) - if the odds are the same then I wouldn't change anything, particularly for a more complicated mechanism. I like the principle of the idea but wouldn't go for it as it doesn't address the main complaint of Stealth rolls being all or nothing.

You know what addresses that complaint? To-hit rolls, modified by stealth, instead of a stealth roll before you can even fire.

 

[Triggy]

Personally (because I'm so statistically minded) - if the odds are the same then I wouldn't change anything, particularly for a more complicated mechanism. I like the principle of the idea but wouldn't go for it as it doesn't address the main complaint of Stealth rolls being all or nothing.

You know what addresses that complaint? To-hit rolls, modified by stealth, instead of a stealth roll before you can even fire.

That's one of the possibilities that has been discussed - with its own problems too of course

 

[Locutus9956]

Yep and personally I prefer it too. Basically I would ideally like stealth to be a 'diceless' mechanic, it would just feel more 'right'.

 

[Ripple]

Agree, diceless would feel better given the way it was in the show... ie there was no 'if we can just...' type lines. Either they could see Minbari or they couldn't see ANY Minbari. None of this see it one turn not the other, see one sharlin but not his neighbor.

Ripple

 

[Da Boss]

Personally (because I'm so statistically minded) - if the odds are the same then I wouldn't change anything, particularly for a more complicated mechanism. I like the principle of the idea but wouldn't go for it as it doesn't address the main complaint of Stealth rolls being all or nothing.

You know what addresses that complaint? To-hit rolls, modified by stealth, instead of a stealth roll before you can even fire.

That's one of the possibilities that has been discussed - with its own problems too of course

out of interest - what are the problems?

sort of on subject (but not anything to do with the fun / not fun aspect) it woudl apear from the rules that a fighter firing at a Minbari ship (and surviving) lowers stealth by one?

have fun!

 

[Drahazar]

those are interesting. I was thinking of something simuliar to warhammer fantasy and armour saves. Please hear me out or read which ever

say a sharlin has a Stealth(armour save) of 2 so any roll would make the stealth roll and the enemy ship would miss. maybe give it a 1+ so in the end it would be 50/50 to compnesate for negatives. Of course a roll of a one is always a failed stealth roll.

then you get in close that puts a negative on so now the sharlin needs a 3+sv you then hit it with a scout they need a 4+stealth sv

then say you target it and hit it now the sharlin needs a 5+ save.

and it should be rolled for each hit on the ship. similar to the dodge for a white star except the obvious differences.


for those who do not know warhammer fantasy.

each strength higher than 3 puts a negative on the sv through for the guy.

4 = -1
5 = -2
6 = -3
and so on. I think this system is a good idea. but I am not sure how it would fit into the grand scheme of things. what do you guys think.

 

[Burger]

That is too similar to dodge, with a variable dodge value.

 

[Drahazar]

yes its similar except it dose not get whiped out like dodge dose with AF. so you always get a roll where with dodge there are no negatives unless the ati fighter is shot at it. at least the minbari still get there save albeit a hard one once the modifiers are added. and instead of rolling for every hit. they could do just one roll for the ship trying to shoot it. instead of rolling for every hit. or for each weapon system trying to fire. like they target it with two weapon systems from a ship the minbari player then rolls there stealth roll for each weapon system trying to lock on.

 

[H]

so essentially, it's like current stealth, only the other ship rolls it?! 2+ save of course being stealth 5 at 15" range?
I don't really see any improvement, it's still a sole dice roll to see if stealth works or not.

 

[Triggy]

The biggest problems are:
It's too similar to an armour save such as Dodge.
The Stealth mechanism about targeting ships already successfully attacked wouldn't work.