New Ships for Noble Armada

[MongooseMatt]

We have more reinforcements for the Noble Houses...

al Malik Rashid Escort Carrier: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/noble-armada/al-malik-rashid-escort-carrier.html

Decados Donatello Gunship: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/noble-armada/decados-donatello-gunship.html

Hawkwood Sawfly Command Frigate: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/noble-armada/hawkwood-sawfly-command-frigate.html

And House Hazat is born again hard;

Hazat Allat Escort: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/noble-armada/hazat-allat-escort.html

Hazat Immortal Boarding Shuttle: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/noble-armada/hazat-immortal-boarding-shuttle.html

And the rules for all the new ships from Fleets of the Fading Suns can be found here: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/nafleetspre.pdf

These new additions will start shipping next week!

(BTW, the Escort trait simply means you can use your gatling lasers on/for any friendly ship within 4" - all other rules stay the same!).

 

[Clanger]

Nice more Hazat Ships for me to play with

 

[starbreaker]

Observations and questions:

1) Sawfly gives the Hawkwoods an inexpensive Command option, but no more inexpensive (at present) than an unloaded Al Malik or Li Halan carrier. Durability is slightly lower than said carriers against most weapons. Most Hawkwoods will probably want 1 or 2 for their minis collection to provide Command support in low-point games. They're only sold in packs of 4, barring the release of a second Hawkwood fleet box or something.

2) Donatello gunship is one of the better arguments for fielding fighters in the game. Cost still seems very high, as it does with all craft.

3) Immortal boarding shuttle raises several questions. It can immediately board any enemy ship "it moves on to" - meaning what? Bases in contact? Within 2" of the ship's flight stem? Can it only board enemy ships? Can it dock with non-carrier friendly ships to pick up or drop off troops? Since ships have (at present) no limit on how many troops can be aboard them, can you offload some or all of the troops in an Immortal straight onto their parent carrier to beef up their defenses, then launch the empties as decoys? What would the timing on such activity be, one turn to unload, a second to launch? Less? Regardless, these are another strong argument for using fighters, and will make life enormously harder for other boarding fleets which will now have to leave significant numbers of troops behind on their ships to prevent Immortal counterboarding. At least they're slow and Hazat carriers are expensive - but in a campaign, can a captured carrier operate another fleet's specialized craft like the Immortal?

4) Allat escort looks like a "silver bullet" ship aimed right at a couple of fleets. Hawkwood has enough lasers that losing out on 4-7 missile hits per intervening escort might not kill them, and enough speed to put them out of position sometimes. Kurgan are also fast, but their heat blasters aren't as shooty as lasers by a long shot so they're harder hit. Al Malik is slow, and all their firepower comes from Slow weapons - they're going to be hard-pressed to deal with these things, or the ships they'll be covering. Have the Allats been playtested in quantity in larger games, where spending (say) 320-480 points to cover a 1500-2000 point fleet as it advances to light blaster/boarding threat range is viable? Their low cost and escort rule makes building "box of iron" formations (where the "off side" gatlings cover ships deeper in the formation) with Allats much easier.

5) Rashid escort carriers are terrible. Two of them bring the same number of craft to the table as a standard carrier, with marginally more combined firepower and a few more troops. You're paying 50 points more for the duo and losing out on Command +1, and because of the awful Hull 3 rating, you gain virtually nothing in terms of durability against most weapons. There might be a use for one (and only one) of these scows if you really want a carrier in a small point game. Pity they're sold in packs of 4.

6) Kurgan suicide fighters have had their costs reduced. Yet another argument for fighters to dogfight these things into oblivion.

7) Mujahidin raider has had its damage points greatly increased to 15/4. Still an iffy buy even at that, but somewhat better.

8 ) Qawwas frigate has had its damage increased to 22/6. Possibly the best frigate in the game now, combining speed, maneuverability, a massive troop complement, and very respectable shield-penetrating weaponry.

9) Sheerkhur galliot damage is now 26/7, an even larger increase than the other classes. I think it grew a rocket launcher in each broadside as well, but that's not what you buy them for anyway.

10) Khabir light carrier damage is now a massive 36/10.

11) Yildugh destroyer is damage 36/10 as well, and grew two rocket launchers in each broadside. Still an iffy choice compared to the frigates, but you'll want one or two to threaten capital ships with ramming anyway. Now they're a better bargain and likely to hold up long enough to get there.

12) Arigaba heavy carrier is now damage 51/14, a huge jump. The increases to the smaller Khabirs still make a pair of them the better buy - and it still has a floating comma typo in the trait line.

13) Juhangiz cruiser is damage 51/14 as well. Staggering tough compared to House cruisers.

14) Kublai dread has damage 90/25, which is beyond nutty. It'll have taken an average of 10 or 11 crits by the time it goes crippled, and that's assuming no Precise guns firing.

15) Myrkwyrm "explorer" has had Ram reduced to 2 and cost increased to 40. We knew it was coming, the dinky ram fleets were dominant.

16) Darraor light frigate either had its Hull reduced to 3 or I've been misplaying it all this time. Ram is now 3, part of a trend.

17) Hadruk frigate Ram is now 4. That's pretty scary in 100 point hull that moves 12".

18) Froljir galliot is Ram 5. It will probably replace the Myrkwyrm swarms as the Vuldrok rammer of choice, and with Armor 3 and Damage 21 it may be nearly as good. Scoring a ram crit/x2/x3 on 2+/4+/6+ is simply horrifying - if youdon't stop these things before they get to 12" range or so, you're losing your crusier/heavy carrier/dread more often than not. Myrks could do this as well, and faster, but they tended to bleed at least 120 points managing it. This does it all in one package.

19) Langskip destroyer is Ram 7 now. Ram crit/x2/x3/x4 on 2+/3+/5+/6+ now. Froljir is still a better primary rammer due to cost differential, but if you need a capital ship killed, it's certainly a fair secondary choice for the job. Big enough to live through hitting a cruiser pretty often, too.

20) Slatra Konugr dread had its guns relaid. Heavy slug guns are turret only, but the broadsides are now 10 AD of medium slugs. It's not as good at providing long range fire support as it was, but much better under various special orders that only allow you to fire one weapon. Theoretically better when crippled too, but by that point it's taken so many crits it may not matter.

 

[tneva82]

15) Myrkwyrm "explorer" has had Ram reduced to 2 and cost increased to 40. We knew it was coming, the dinky ram fleets were dominant.

40 or 30? Is the entry correct or fleet list? Presumably unit entry but as it is now there's 2 prices...

At least I have habit of using the fleet list to check on prices so I almost managed to miss the 40 price tag...

 

[starbreaker]

15) Myrkwyrm "explorer" has had Ram reduced to 2 and cost increased to 40. We knew it was coming, the dinky ram fleets were dominant.

40 or 30? Is the entry correct or fleet list? Presumably unit entry but as it is now there's 2 prices...

At least I have habit of using the fleet list to check on prices so I almost managed to miss the 40 price tag...

Uncertain, but the unit cost is the changed value, so it's likely that it's correct and the fleet list got missed when they were making alterations. Hopefully they correct the list before going to press.

 

[locarno24]

At least they're slow and Hazat carriers are expensive

True, but remember the strike cruiser; if you treat it like a standard cruiser but have two immortals ready to fly once the range closes (and you have no time to intercept), they could prove rather nasty.

Froljir galliot is Ram 5

Jesus Wept. Right. Kill the galliots. Got it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

At least they're slow and Hazat carriers are expensive

True, but remember the strike cruiser; if you treat it like a standard cruiser but have two immortals ready to fly once the range closes (and you have no time to intercept), they could prove rather nasty.

True - almost as if the Shamshir was designed for them

Froljir galliot is Ram 5

Jesus Wept. Right. Kill the galliots. Got it.

Fairly standard tactics for all fleets - people do like to pick on galliots

 

[starbreaker]

No answers on the rules questions about the Immortals or the Myrkwyrm price, Matt? Tsk.

Yep, the Sham is an obvious platform for Immortals - but at over 300 points the package won't bring enough to the table to be really scary. Four marauders are good, but not "how do I deal with this???" good. A maxed-out carrier with 12 of them runs 500, 560 with marauders loaded in everything. Now that's scary time, and the new escorts can play sheepdog to keep fighters from freely dogfighting the shuttles as they lumber over to the enemy.

Killing galliots is old hat, but galliots with Ram 5 make it mandatory. Usually galliots dump their troops before ramming something - with these things, it might be worthwhile not to bother, especially if you haven't upgraded them any.

 

[MongooseMatt]

No answers on the rules questions about the Immortals or the Myrkwyrm price, Matt? Tsk.

Sorry, missed those.

Myrkwyrm cost, apologies, use the ship roster not the summary at the beginning.

Immortals, 'on to' means contact (literally, 'on to' the base). There are no rules at present that allow a fighter to dock with a non-carrier, so no to that one.

Like the decoy idea, can't think of a reason to stop people doing that. Might not be the best use of them, however, unless your opponent has made a habit of capturing your carriers.

And yes, I have been looking forward to the Immortals coming out _because_ it will get people to rethink their ideas about fighters in a hurry (they are not the only release that will do this, but consider them a start!). Yes, they are slow, but you can;t let a pack of them just float about in space without an answer, as they are fully capable of causing a destroyer, maybe even a cruiser, some serious issues. Double that if they carry Marauders, but it will be a brave Hazat who invests that much in Marauders that are floating about in a tin can!

Oh, and a comment on the Allat - it is good, but not as awesome as it might appear, especially in the larger battles mentioned. They are good for shielding (to an extent) one part of your force (I recommend galliots, or maybe Immortals), but you will find that while they can put out a pretty light display, it is by no means impenetrable. And an Allat cannot take too much damage itself.

Treat it as a support craft, rather than a core fleet component.

Killing galliots is old hat, but galliots with Ram 5 make it mandatory. Usually galliots dump their troops before ramming something - with these things, it might be worthwhile not to bother, especially if you haven't upgraded them any.

Ramming is quicker, easier, more seductive. But you are always, always going to be better off capturing a ship (especially with a ship dedicated to boarding).

 

[DHannigan]

Just wondering if you are going to put out a card set that list all the ships?

 

[starbreaker]

Ramming is quicker, easier, more seductive. But you are always, always going to be better off capturing a ship (especially with a ship dedicated to boarding).

Perhaps, although there's no point in boarding a ship if the enemy is positioned to counterboard properly and both retake his own and grab your galliot while he's at it - something those shiny Immortals have just made easier. The Froljir's insanely high Ram gives it a really worthwhile second option, something most other galliots lack. Even if you never use your troops, you can easily expect to earn your cost and then some by ramming something as small as a destroyer, and if there's a crusier or dread out there smashing it with a suicide ram ASAP will generally leave it so beat up that it's easy meat for the rest of the fleet.

The ship's arguably worth more than 120 at this point, weak guns and lack of marauder upgrades or no.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Just wondering if you are going to put out a card set that list all the ships?

Very likely - we are going to do the Star Fleet set first, see what people think, and follow up with Noble Armada a little later.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Perhaps, although there's no point in boarding a ship if the enemy is positioned to counterboard properly and both retake his own and grab your galliot while he's at it - something those shiny Immortals have just made easier.

To be fair, you have just decribed the perfect conditions for making the ram, which kinda makes the argument self-fulfilling

Try these ships out in games. You should find they are nicely balanced.

 

[Clanger]

Cannot wait for the Church to make a show . (will probably be my 2nd Fleet of Choice).

 

[locarno24]

Their low cost and escort rule makes building "box of iron" formations (where the "off side" gatlings cover ships deeper in the formation) with Allats much easier.

Thinking about the Allat-class; given the phrase

the Escort trait simply means you can use your gatling lasers on/for any friendly ship within 4" - all other rules stay the same

I'm not sure you can do anything with the 'off-side' lasers. Unless I'm misunderstanding, saying there's no exception to the arc of fire rules means you can't intercept a barrage of missiles/rockets/torpedoes/atomic space parrots/etc unless the firer is in your arc of fire. So no shooting as things go past you with the gatlings on the other flank.

May be reading too much into that, though. Msprange comment?

They are good, though. If nothing else, they give you the ability to cover the irritating prow-and-stern blind spot of most big capital ship's flak defences.

 

[starbreaker]

Their low cost and escort rule makes building "box of iron" formations (where the "off side" gatlings cover ships deeper in the formation) with Allats much easier.

Thinking about the Allat-class; given the phrase

the Escort trait simply means you can use your gatling lasers on/for any friendly ship within 4" - all other rules stay the same

I'm not sure you can do anything with the 'off-side' lasers. Unless I'm misunderstanding, saying there's no exception to the arc of fire rules means you can't intercept a barrage of missiles/rockets/torpedoes/atomic space parrots/etc unless the firer is in your arc of fire. So no shooting as things go past you with the gatlings on the other flank.

Possibly. The problem is that the definition of what an attack is and where it occurs is unclear. Do you look only at the position of the firer relative to the gatling - the firer is almost never within 2-4" range, so that how does that make sense? Or only the target's relative position - the "attack" happening at the last moment - if that's the case, the gats facing the firer are the ones that can't fire, but the off-side ones can? Or do you look at the line of fire between the two - that lets the gats facing the firer shoot when the rockets get within 2-4" range, but it also lets the off-side gats fire as they stream past? My assumption has always been the the last option, but it could be one of the others. Not the first time the gat rules have confused the heck out of me.

Regardless, yes, they're a very good buy even with "only" 4 gats active per turn.

 

[locarno24]

I think this is one where an example would help. I approve of things like escort ships, generally, but in the B5 ACTA, Anti-Fighter was a trait with no arc of fire restrictions. Now flak guns have very defined arcs of fire, this needs explaining.

 

[starbreaker]

Agreed. An example of the rules as intended would be helpful here, and for gatlings in general since all Escort does is extend the range they operate at - they've always been able to cover other ships, you just had to crowd in tight to manage it.

You there, Matt?

 

[starbreaker]

Try these ships out in games. You should find they are nicely balanced.

I've tried three "extreme circumstance" playtests with the Vuldrok Froljir galliots now. Call To Arms scenario at 600 points, 1000 points, 1500 points, with no Vuldie ships on the table but galliots versus Al Malik, Decados, and Li Halan "shooter" fleets based around destroyers and frigates (and scouts, for the Al Malik). The Froljirs have won hands down in every game, without even losing a ship in the 600 point game. They didn't even have to initiate a boarding action until I reached the 1500 point level, although they did manage to lose one in the 1000 pointer when one of their rammers was boarded after sucking up a bad crew crit.

Not enough games to provide a valid statistical sampling, but enough to convince me that with their current stats, their ramming is strong enough that their putatative function as boarding ships can be ignored if desired. You'd obviously be better off getting some mileage out of your 12 troops before going in nose-first, but you don't have to - Ram 5 on a 120 point speed 12 hull really is that good.

To put it more clearly, you've given them two very strong options to use where other galliots have only boarding and a weak ram option as a fallback, and you haven't charged them a thing for it. Armor 3 and the CBD bonus is already better than 3 shields are, and the lousy guns aren't all that much lousier than those found on other galliots (barring the Hazat, which pays for its guns). The Froljir is worth more than 120 points as written, but how much more I'll leave up to your real playtesting crew. They aren't as broken as the Myrkwyrm 2.0 was, but they're too good for their cost compared to other galliots. Their only major drawback is the lack of Marauder upgrades, but the elites option is good enough, especially with 12 troops jammed on board.

Oh, and can we get an example of how facing/non-facing gatlings are supposed to work, as per the posts above this one?

 

[Nerroth]

I took a look at how the Escort trait is presented in the preview file:

Escort: This ship is designed with advanced systems and focussed gatling lasers that are designed to protect other ships in the fleet. Any gatling lasers that have a friendly ship within 4 inches and within their arc of fire may be used to protect that ship as if they were actually mounted upon it. They may be used to defend against fighters, grapple lines and boarders as normal but may still only be used once per turn for each type of defence.

So it seems that the "off-side" lasers won't be of any benefit, since it's the position of the friendly ship (relative to the escort's facing gatling arc) which counts, not which direction the incoming targets are coming from.


Speaking of traits, is the Kurgan Mujahidin supposed to have a (presumably new) Raider trait, or is that line meant to read as Agile instead?