New Scout Rules vs Drone Limits

[Captain Jonah]

All in all, in larger battles it can be a wash but in smaller (under 8 ships) it could be a dramatic difference maker. It is interesting that a Scout 3 Kzinti costs 180 and that Scout 4 Gorn is 160.

Well aside from the one extra scout channel the Gorn has turn mode 6, 18 shields, a grand total of 4 Phaser 1s with the Gorn arcs and 2 Phaser 3s.

The Kzinti on the other hand has turn mode 4, Agile, wider Phaser arcs, its Phaser 3s are T, it has slightly less hull but 24 shields making it 20+ and most of all it has Drone 4 whereas the Gorn has given up all heavy weapons. In comparison the Gorn seems expensive or the Kzinti ship cheap.

Scouts with Drones are far more powerful than Plasma ships which either have no heavy weapons or cannot fire them without blinding the sensors. The HDS is a poor scout in that it can either fire a very small plasma load or scout but not both, the Kzinti can scout AND fire 4 Drones every turn. Plus the wording for the 4th ship is “The Scout may attack the scouting target with its Drones” making any Drone armed scout vastly more powerful and the cost should reflect that.

Drone bombardment ships with scout sensors are going to be absolutely horrible and I foresee a move to revise the Drone rules again later on when people start realising that the three ship limit in an environment with D5WDs and the like puts us right back to 18+ Drones on a single target.

The Kzinti CM scout is 20 points more expensive than the CM and swaps four disruptors for three scout sensors. Replace two MCs with MSCs in a larger Kzinti fleet and that’s two 16 Drone attacks every turn. Use terrain to hide from that Gorn scout to stop it blocking your attacks or even just kill it fast. It can block 4 ships drones (mostly) so hit it with the other 4 ships.

*Lights the bonfire for a quick Scoutdad BBQ* :lol:

Comparisons with other versions don’t work due to how very different ACTA-SF is compared to SFB and FC. Drones don’t crawl across the map getting shot at by everyone for free, it takes a Special Action to defend another ship rather than just an unfired Phaser in arc. A sensor stopping all Drones from a ship or 1D6 Drones compared to how hard it is to otherwise stop them is about fair.

Overall the scout rules give and take. I’m glad its line of sight, having scouts hiding behind terrain and still having an affect seems wrong to me. But scouts for the Drone races bring a lot of advantages to the table. One Gorn CLS can do a lot but it is going to take two or three to completely lock down a Drone heavy fleet and that’s just the Drones. They still have a lot of Phasers and Disruptors.

The fact that Drone bombardment ships come in with scouts ramps up the Drones per target number a lot and throw in the battleships and new stuff with the next expansion and the Drone races have very little reason to complain. Yes a scout 4 is good, yes it can stop a lot of Drones. Then when it’s dead you still have a lot of Drones and the ability to fire 4 ship groups including the scouts.

There is very little here for the Kzinti to complain about, quite the opposite overall.

 

[AdmiralGrafSpee]

There is very little here for the Kzinti to complain about, quite the opposite overall.

I agree with your analysis of the ship by ship analysis of the points but...

I disagree that the Kzinti are better off. I'm pretty sure that giving every race the ability to just outright cancel your main weapon is worse then getting a couple of good new ships.

If you do a point by point breakdown of the Gorn CLS vs some of the other scouts it may not seem to add up. However the Gorn CLS fills one of the biggest disadvantages of a Gorn fleet. You do not need 2-3 CLS to counter drones. One of them will give you enough anti-drone power that the rest of your ships can easily manage with phasers. It also gives the gorn a boost their initiative should their opponents decide not to take them. Also, enemy scouts can't do anything about reducing a Gorn's Plasma attacks, so many races may decide not to field scouts against the gorn.

The CLS is not so easy to take down. A good gorn player will keep him well back - there is no need to have it run right up to the front lines. This effectively means that the Kzinti player will only be able to attack it with disruptors. If it tries to get close enough to fire drones with 18", it will undoubtedly get end up taking far more plasma damage than it can manage.

So really given the gorn gain the most from scouts and that the CLS is a dedicated scout (i.e. no plasma which don't synergize at all) with 4 channels - I see it being the most useful scout in the game.

The Kzinti scouts are very nice, but the ability to tack on more drones is moot if your opponent cancels out the Kzinti scouts ability to even launch drones. If for some reason you chose not to field a scout against Kzinti, and they do bring one, then agreed, you have just opened up yourself to a world of hurt - enjoy giving the Kzinti an extra +1 init and subjecting one ship per turn to 16 drones!

Now, don't get me wrong, I love these rules and should the counter drone be reduced to 1d6 (which is still a pretty good number) I will be quite happy. I do think the Gorn needed something, and d6 will be about the right level.

-Tim

 

[Asguard101]

Now, don't get me wrong, I love these rules and should the counter drone be reduced to 1d6 (which is still a pretty good number) I will be quite happy. I do think the Gorn needed something, and d6 will be about the right level.

-Tim

I still think a d6 a too much. Other than the BCH and the DN, all Kzinti ships only launch 4 drones. Thats mean that each Scout Channel has a 50% of kill all drone and then 66% of killing at least 3. The odds of the Kzinti winning with a Enemy scout on the table is very low. And as AdmiralGrafSpee and I have both said, you counter-drone the scout and you can't claim the Kzinti can still launch 4 ships worth of drones. No other race has a primary weapon that can be shut down this effectively. Even the Plasma race players have to admit their Plasmas are harder to shoot down, than the way a Scout deals with the Kzinti.

 

[Greg Smith]

I still think a d6 a too much. Other than the BCH and the DN, all Kzinti ships only launch 4 drones.

Battleships, heavy dreadnoughts and drone ships are going to bring a lot more drones to the table when the supplement arrives.

 

[Asguard101]

I still think a d6 a too much. Other than the BCH and the DN, all Kzinti ships only launch 4 drones.

Battleships, heavy dreadnoughts and drone ships are going to bring a lot more drones to the table when the supplement arrives.

So your saying the Kzinti will only have a better than average chance when it has a battleship, Heavy Battle Cruiser, or a Drone Bombardment ship?

Sorry for being sarcastic, but for the rules to fair, it must must be able to hold up to what is currently available, not will be in the future.

 

[AdmiralGrafSpee]

What are the odds of getting the Kzinti Super Space Control Ship (SSCS)? Cause man that thing could handle d6 no problem

If d6 is a problem - there are so many ways this could be dealt with to generate different results. Say you roll 6d6 per channel and for each one that you make a crew check of 9 on you take out a drone?

-Tim

 

[McKinstry]

We have proposed rules, months before Battlegroups goes to print (Q1 2013 at the earliest) and the Kzinti due out before the end of the month.

Lots of time to playtest.

 

[Myrm]

Sorry for being sarcastic, but for the rules to fair, it must must be able to hold up to what is currently available, not will be in the future.

Actually that isn't entirely true - when designing rules and balance they must be future proofed to what can reliably be expected - otherwise all that happens is new supplement comes out and there has to be a complete rewrite of what exists.

In this case the issue is caused by one of the more effective scouts in the game, for its on-mission purpose, where you should expect it to be good - it will stop a fair amount of firepower, but it is also a sitting duck without heavy weapons.....send a frigate rush at it. At a basic level points are an average situation and there will be certain elements of restricted circumstances where things may out perform their points - that scout is a pointless sitting duck if you send it one on one against a Tholian cruiser or a Kearsage NCL - not only will it lose, it will lose badly - that doesnt make it overcosted either. Be very wary of repointing based on extremes of single function.

That said, D6 is too much still for drone defence option on any scout IMO - but thats because it doesnt reflect accurately the balance point on which the rule structure is based (again IMO). However thats the point of releasing such rules in an as yet unofficial form out to testing.

 

[Captain Jonah]

One of the concerns I had with the mix of ships in the Gorn fleet box is the fact that I get so few BDDs/ HDDs/CMs and instead get 3 DDs and 3 CLs.

For SFB/FC I would use a DD or CL if the scenario called for it but not otherwise.

For ACTA-SF I would very rarely if ever use a DD or CL. Yet the fleet box contains 6 of the things.

One CL and one DD will be chopped to form wrecks as objective markers and now I have a use for a second CL, converting it to a scout.

The Gorn CLS is very good as a scout. It’s all but useless as a warship but it makes a damm fine scout platform. 8)

With scouts being line of sight they have to come out to target an enemy, they need to hang back out of heavy weapon fire and they need to be escorted if they have no weapons. So you have a whole new set of tactics to learn. How to deploy scouts, how to keep them alive and how to kill them.

Will I be taking a CLS, Yes. :wink:

Anyway back to scouts in general. A big part of the current problem seems to be that scouts have become totally anti Direct fire/Drones. They have lost the +1 stealth thing to defend friendly ships with, they have lost the re roll for a single weapon type.

They have no effect on Plasmas, some effect on Phasers/Disruptors/Photons and a big effect on Drones. Making the impact they have disproportionate against the non plasma races.

Hence the concern being expressed that the Kzinti are being neutered. Well to be fair they are cats and should be fixed but that’s another topic. :lol:

A scout sensor can stop (currently 1D6) drones fired by a single ship using one sensor. This is effective yes and will reduce, on average, any non BB/DN/Drone ship/Kzinti to no Drones. Aside from the Gorn (and the Fed DD super scout if it arrives) the very best scouts are scout 3.

Some like the Romulan Sparrowhawk C are a fully functional warship that also has scout sensors, others are Phaser boats or Drone platforms.

If you know you are going to be facing a Plasma Race you have little to gain by taking more than a single scout sensor for the +1 Initiative. If you know you are facing a heavy Drone fleet you have a lot to gain by taking one or two scouts and not the little ones either.

So overall across all the races you should be looking at the effectiveness of a scout 3 against Drone heavy fleets since that is the best all the races can field. One scout channels stops 1D6 Drones, Scout 3 affects three ships. On average one scout in a fleet of 7 ships. The random nature of the roll means on average Drone 3 or below will be completely blocked and Drone 4 + will have a chance of getting some Drones through. You could roll a 1 or a 6. Its random but on average 3.5 Drones will be stopped.

Reducing the Anti Drone effect still further, as has been suggested Makes scout 1 or 2 all but useless. If a scout sensor stops 2 Drones then it takes a scout 2 just to stop the Drones from a Kzinti ship or a BCH or a DWD.

Every race has a scout 3, so to look at the effective anti drone ability of scouts you need to look at scout 3. No one is going to play Gorn just because they have the verse’s only scout 4.

I don’t play the furballs so I am perhaps missing something here but I see Drones as hugely powerful with a range beyond anything else that can act like more vulnerable 18” range Plasmas with no reload that also come with Disruptors.

The fact that people are saying that Scouts which can block Drones makes the Kzinti worthless is just another point that says Drones are still a little too OP. Kzinti ships have Disruptors, they can fire every turn at 24” wearing down targets bit by bit. The fact that 1D6 Drones can be removed from play by a scout sensor is much like a less effective but ammo less ADD.

Is it good, yes. Is it overwhelming, I don’t think so. It is effective against a fleet that only uses Drones and nothing else. But there are no fleets like that in ACTA-SF. If all your scout sensors are blocking drones nothing is slowing the Disruptor fire, nothing is stopping the Phasers or the Photons.

Drones in ACTA-SF are nothing like SFB/FC drones. Comparisons with FC scouts stopping this many Drones or SFB scouts stopping this many drones simply doesn’t apply to ACTA which is an entirely different game system that happens to share the names and fluff of the SFU verse.

Use tactics, use terrain. Find some furball players and test scouts against them. But please don’t start a campaign to nerf scouts on the grounds that the Kzinti actually have to use tactics and fire disruptors at people to beat them. :roll:

 

[The Big D]

One of the concerns I had with the mix of ships in the Gorn fleet box is the fact that I get so few BDDs/ HDDs/CMs and instead get 3 DDs and 3 CLs.

For SFB/FC I would use a DD or CL if the scenario called for it but not otherwise.

For ACTA-SF I would very rarely if ever use a DD or CL. Yet the fleet box contains 6 of the things.

One CL and one DD will be chopped to form wrecks as objective markers and now I have a use for a second CL, converting it to a scout.

Just a thought. If you don't want to use the DDs or CLs, do what the gorns did and convert them. Chop the front of 1 DD/CL and stick it to the back of another. Bit of putty to cover the joins and instant BDD/BC? Keep 1 CL as a scout and mangle the other DD as an objective.

3DD & 3CL = BDD, BC, CLS and an objective!

I turned my unwanted federation strike cruisers and battlecruisers into destroyers!

Geoff

 

[Asguard101]

I don’t play the furballs so I am perhaps missing something here but I see Drones as hugely powerful with a range beyond anything else that can act like more vulnerable 18” range Plasmas with no reload that also come with Disruptors.

The fact that people are saying that Scouts which can block Drones makes the Kzinti worthless is just another point that says Drones are still a little too OP. Kzinti ships have Disruptors, they can fire every turn at 24” wearing down targets bit by bit. The fact that 1D6 Drones can be removed from play by a scout sensor is much like a less effective but ammo less ADD.

Is it good, yes. Is it overwhelming, I don’t think so. It is effective against a fleet that only uses Drones and nothing else. But there are no fleets like that in ACTA-SF. If all your scout sensors are blocking drones nothing is slowing the Disruptor fire, nothing is stopping the Phasers or the Photons.

Yes Drones are very good out to a range of 36, but anything beyond 18 and they have an average chance to miss. On top of that all ships have Tractors that can stop drones, free of charge, plasma don't have that disadvantage.

As for the disruptors, Kzinti do have them, they don't have the Klingons shielding to weather the returning fire.

And for terrain, that is not a Kzinti's friend. They have some of the worst turn modes out there. Granted I don't have my book in front of me to check, but I believe they are the only race with a BCH that has a turn mode of 9.

On the solution side, what if each Scout Channel was able to shut down 2 drones? That would mean the average Scout '3' would be able to stop 6 drones, and the Gorns special Scout '4' would be able to stop 8. Does that sound fair to both sides of the argument?

 

[Da Boss]

bad Turn modes - not really true

Kzinti Frigates, Light Cruisers are turn 3 and Agil - everything upto the 245pt Heavy Battlecruiser is turn 4 (so better than many other races). The reall big ships turn very badly but thats only 2 ships.

Durability - Kzinti have good damage and shields scores on most ships

I would suggest trying the rules as is rather han dropping the number stopped - also remember the scout has to have LOS to your ship to Jam your drones IIRC. It might need fixing, it might not.

 

[McKinstry]

I would suggest trying the rules as is rather han dropping the number stopped - also remember the scout has to have LOS to your ship to Jam your drones IIRC. It might need fixing, it might not.

Agreed.

The current drone rules only came about after some fairly intense playtesting.

We have months before anything goes to print. Let's see lots and lots of playtest AAR's.

 

[Asguard101]

During each turn, in place of performing any Special Actions, a Scout ship can perform a number of the following functions equal to its Scout score. These functions are declared when the Scout is moved, as if they were Special Actions. Each function has a Scouting Target that requires the Scout to have line of sight to it and be within 36".

Counter-Drone
The Scout ship may cause all Attack Dice of drones launched by a Scouting Target to miss, whatever range they are launched at.
ADDED FOR SFU COMPLIANCE: THE ACTUAL SCOUT-TARGET IS SELECTED AS A DEFENSIVE ACTION AT THE TIME THAT TARGET LAUNCHES.
NOTE FROM DAL THIS MORNING FOR SFU COMPLIANCE AND TACTICAL GAME BALANCE: SHOULD BE A DIE ROLL OF 1D6 OF DRONE AD REMOVED, NOT ALL OF IT.

Drone Control
The Scout ship may attack Scouting Target with its drones, even if the enemy has been attacked by three other ships firing drones. Only one Scout ship can do this against any one target.

How do this two rules interact? Do you have to declaire that a channel will be used for counter drone at the begining of the turn, and then declaire it again when a ship fire drones?

Also, if a ship gets to fire before the Scout's turn, does its drones get by without interferance?

 

[Da Boss]

As I understand it it is a subject under discussion

As I understand it you would declare that you were using one Scout point as Counterdrone and then use it when a specific ship launches its drones.

Its like defensive fire so it does not matter whoo's go it is as it is a reaction to an action?

but could be wrong

 

[Asguard101]

Does the Scout have to do a Attack Dice Roll if its beyond 18 inches of the Drone firing ship, like the drones have to do, or do they get automatic success?

 

[Rambler]

The RAW does not have any kind of to hit check so I would say Automatic.

 

[Lawdog1700]

Just for everyone's information. My group started a campaign today and we decided to use scouts as written except that we set the Counter-Drone ability to stop d3 drones from a dingle ship per scout channel dedicated. It seemed to work really well. It suppressed the Kzinti drone threat...but the Kzinti were still able to land some drone hits here and there.

Great fun!