New Rule (possibly): Group Narrative Checks

MongooseMatt

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Hey everyone,

Here is a little something we are trying out...

In the Fifth Frontier War series, Martin has been sneaking in some new rules that are really quite good. He introduced the idea of Trivial Characters (see https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/developers-diary-encounters.125712/ for an outline, if you are unfamiliar with these) which we will be adding to the core Traveller rules in due course (and, by extension, the likes of Dark Conspiracy and Pioneer).

In the to-be-released Fall of Lanth book, he has added the 'Group Narrative' rule as a sort of wider scope alternative to Task Chains. We are thinking of adding these to the core Traveller rules, and wanted to see what you all think...


Group Narratives​

At various points in adventures the Travellers will have a chance to create a group narrative. Usually this means there is an amount of Effect they need to achieve in total in order to bring about favourable circumstances. The Effect is based on the assumption that there are 3-5 Travellers with typical skill levels. If there are more or less, or if the Travellers are highly experienced, the Effect total can be adjusted by the Referee.

How this total is achieved is largely up to the Travellers. The adventure presents a problem and the Travellers decide how to tackle it. They will decide what skills to use, though the Referee can veto anything too implausible and will decide what level of check is needed. Each Traveller makes their check and narrates what they are doing – and what they achieved – based on the result. The Referee can modify this if the Travellers are getting carried away, and can provide a result if the check is failed. The intention is to provide a group narrative, allowing the Travellers to tell their own story. The Referee can pitch in at any point, so that the group works together to create a great story with everyone getting a share of what might be called ‘camera time’.

For example, the Travellers are trying to defuse a bomb and need a total of Effect +5 to do so. They each have time for one action. Their engineer decides to pull off an access panel and start cutting wires. Although he does not have Explosives skill he does have a good knowledge of electronics. The Referee rules that this is an Average (8+) check but the usual DM-3 applies for lacking the specific skill. The engineer manages to achieve Effect +1, and narrates that he is looking for a power feed to the bomb’s timer.

At this point their astrogator, who knows next to nothing about bombs, interjects that she is searching online databases for information on this type of bomb or its control circuits. She is using Investigate. The Referee decides that a data search does not require knowledge of how to blow stuff up, so no penalty is applied. The astrogator gets Effect +3. She narrates that she has found the netsite of a specialist electronics firm which has a diagram aimed at marketing control devices to mining companies and demolitions contractors.

Meanwhile, the group’s streetwise chancer decides to help by yanking out what he thinks might be the detonators, despite everyone else’s protests. This requires Explosives, the Referee decides, and with DM-3 for not having it the rogue achieves Effect -2. He narrates his effort, and the Referee adds that the bomb’s timer has accelerated.

Everyone runs for cover, except the ex-marine who decides brute force might be the answer. She hoofs the bomb as hard as she can, hoping to break something important. She does not have Explosives, but the Referee decides the Travellers have told a good enough story to be cut some slack and waives the negative DM. The rationale for this is that a former marine might know enough about explosives to kick the right bit – a stretch perhaps, but it makes for a good story. The marine’s mighty boot achieves Effect +3, making +5 in total. The Referee narrates that she has kicked the control panel right off the warhead, sending it whanging across the chamber as the bomb itself rolls with comedic slowness to stop at the feet of the rogue.

‘You know, maybe we can sell that to someone,’ he says, pointing at the now inert warhead.
 
That sounds awfully familiar:

 
Hey everyone,

Here is a little something we are trying out...

In the Fifth Frontier War series, Martin has been sneaking in some new rules that are really quite good. He introduced the idea of Trivial Characters (see https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/developers-diary-encounters.125712/ for an outline, if you are unfamiliar with these) which we will be adding to the core Traveller rules in due course (and, by extension, the likes of Dark Conspiracy and Pioneer).

In the to-be-released Fall of Lanth book, he has added the 'Group Narrative' rule as a sort of wider scope alternative to Task Chains. We are thinking of adding these to the core Traveller rules, and wanted to see what you all think...


Group Narratives​

At various points in adventures the Travellers will have a chance to create a group narrative. Usually this means there is an amount of Effect they need to achieve in total in order to bring about favourable circumstances. The Effect is based on the assumption that there are 3-5 Travellers with typical skill levels. If there are more or less, or if the Travellers are highly experienced, the Effect total can be adjusted by the Referee.

How this total is achieved is largely up to the Travellers. The adventure presents a problem and the Travellers decide how to tackle it. They will decide what skills to use, though the Referee can veto anything too implausible and will decide what level of check is needed. Each Traveller makes their check and narrates what they are doing – and what they achieved – based on the result. The Referee can modify this if the Travellers are getting carried away, and can provide a result if the check is failed. The intention is to provide a group narrative, allowing the Travellers to tell their own story. The Referee can pitch in at any point, so that the group works together to create a great story with everyone getting a share of what might be called ‘camera time’.

For example, the Travellers are trying to defuse a bomb and need a total of Effect +5 to do so. They each have time for one action. Their engineer decides to pull off an access panel and start cutting wires. Although he does not have Explosives skill he does have a good knowledge of electronics. The Referee rules that this is an Average (8+) check but the usual DM-3 applies for lacking the specific skill. The engineer manages to achieve Effect +1, and narrates that he is looking for a power feed to the bomb’s timer.

At this point their astrogator, who knows next to nothing about bombs, interjects that she is searching online databases for information on this type of bomb or its control circuits. She is using Investigate. The Referee decides that a data search does not require knowledge of how to blow stuff up, so no penalty is applied. The astrogator gets Effect +3. She narrates that she has found the netsite of a specialist electronics firm which has a diagram aimed at marketing control devices to mining companies and demolitions contractors.

Meanwhile, the group’s streetwise chancer decides to help by yanking out what he thinks might be the detonators, despite everyone else’s protests. This requires Explosives, the Referee decides, and with DM-3 for not having it the rogue achieves Effect -2. He narrates his effort, and the Referee adds that the bomb’s timer has accelerated.

Everyone runs for cover, except the ex-marine who decides brute force might be the answer. She hoofs the bomb as hard as she can, hoping to break something important. She does not have Explosives, but the Referee decides the Travellers have told a good enough story to be cut some slack and waives the negative DM. The rationale for this is that a former marine might know enough about explosives to kick the right bit – a stretch perhaps, but it makes for a good story. The marine’s mighty boot achieves Effect +3, making +5 in total. The Referee narrates that she has kicked the control panel right off the warhead, sending it whanging across the chamber as the bomb itself rolls with comedic slowness to stop at the feet of the rogue.

‘You know, maybe we can sell that to someone,’ he says, pointing at the now inert warhead.
I like this a lot!
 
The bomb example is fun to read, but something about it bothers me. When the ex-marine suddenly doesn't need Explosives skill because it makes for a better story, I start wondering why we bother with skills at all. It feels like we're edging toward "the rule of cool," which isn't necessarily bad, but it's not really Traveller either.

The whole thing also seems like a lot of work for the GM. With task chains, you know where you stand. With this Group Narrative approach, you're constantly making judgment calls about what's reasonable, who gets to do what, and somehow keeping everyone happy while tracking a bunch of numbers. I've seen GM's struggle with far simpler things.

And honestly, the "everyone gets camera time" idea worries me a bit. I've been at tables where players feel obligated to contribute even when their character has no business being involved. Do we really want to encourage the ship's Steward to help crack enemy codes just so they don't feel left out?

Don't get me wrong, I can see this working well for some groups, especially those big dramatic moments where everyone should be doing something. But making it a core rule? I'd rather see it as an optional approach that referees can try if they want. It would be a nice fit for the Traveller Companion. Some groups will love the freedom, others will miss the structure.
 
I am running some Daggerheart scenarios at my local comic store. As most know it uses Narrative (Powered by the Apocalypse) type mechanics (Success with Hope, Success with Fear, Failure with Hope, Failure with Fear) along with straightforward Gamist mechanics on combat, armor and damage.

Having a group narrative check that encourages player conversation and cooperation, while speeding up play is great.

It might lead to some back and forth negotiation between the Referee and the Players on outcomes that a straightforward chain doesn't but it won't be a you roll first, than you roll than you add and...you get the idea.

I like the idea in that it gives a Referee and Players another way to resolve group work that could encourage more interaction.
 
Narrative-style RPGs are for people who must have everything spoon-fed to them by their Referee. If you can't involve your character without the Referee actively including you, then perhaps they should stick to games that are like that, instead of Mongoose trying to dumb down Traveller.
 
I like the idea in that it gives a Referee and Players another way to resolve group work that could encourage more interaction.
Well, this is where we were coming from on it - and there is a reason that it (currently) sits in a box text next to Task Chains in the rulebooks we are currently working on.

I don't want to flat out say that it is an optional rule (because that tends to be the kiss of death in core rulebooks)... but by its nature it would be optional up to the point it appears in an official adventure, and at that point whatever mechanic is used is going to be down to what the author is trying to portray (to get a bit arty about things for a moment).
 
If a new rule must be made up so that their adventure works, then either the Traveller system is flawed and needs fixed, or the writer should stay within the rules as written so I don't have to buy every book just to have the rules for playing Traveller. Optional rules, sure fine, but as soon as it is no longer optional, due to being in an official adventure, then it belongs in the Core books and not in an adventure book.
 
As I said, I don't use the task chain rules as written because they suffer an obvious flaw.

The situation number as I called it, which you/MJD are calling a narrative Effect target number, I find to be much more useful for group efforts and extended tasks.

The devil is in the detail, characters can often throw so many DMs at a die roll that effect numbers become much higher then a 2d6 resolution mechanic can cope with, so a lot of guidance is needed so referees can come up with suitable Effect target numbers.

What if you only have 1 to 3 players rather than the 3 to 5? You would have to use a lower target number. Players would tend to try and use theri most favourable skills and characteristics to apply to a situation, the referee needs guidance on setting boundaries.

For example a critical hit has disabled the power distribution on a ship. I as the referee know what sort of damage control skills the characters (PC and NPC) can use so I suggest those, but the players may come up with different skill choices and direct NPS, expert systems and robots who could all get die rolls too.

I like it, it works once you get used to it.
 
Narrative-style RPGs are for people who must have everything spoon-fed to them by their Referee. If you can't involve your character without the Referee actively including you, then perhaps they should stick to games that are like that, instead of Mongoose trying to dumb down Traveller.
Total aside from this thread intent perhaps but:

We are over 1,700 pages on our wiki for our play by post Traveller game. All effectively player driven with rulings by me when needed, and lots of breadcrumbs strewn about for them to chase after as they wish.


This type of Narrative/Task Chain composite will work well for our table, of course every table is different.
 
I have totally run narrative scenes in Traveller before without rules or rolls. Generally, it is when everyone agrees that something would be cool and is also plausible, then We roleplay through it and just skip the rules parts. Otherwise, We just use the rules and play as normal, task chains and all. It is pretty rare that this happens though.
 
I like the proposed rule, @MongooseMatt. One comment on presenting them, though. You referenced where you posted about trivial characters in the Dark Conspiracy forum. A number of us don’t look at Dark Conspiracy or 2300AD (which also needs its own forum) and I had no idea that was there.

Like this rule, you shouldn’t bury it in a post in a thread that isn’t read by everyone. Do like this post and put it in the Traveller forum and title it as a proposed rule. Let us all in on the fun.
 
Narrative role play is more about telling a good story.

You get rewarded, regardless of whether the task being described being attempted, is successful, or not.
 
I also think that players desperately trying to get their character into the limelight is a problem not a solution. In cooperative story telling part of the cooperation is knowing that this is not your scene and let the other person shine for once.

It also means the referee is no longer adjudicating the resolution of challenges they established over a significant amount of design and tuning time, but is responding on the fly to whatever random gibberish the players decide to come up with.

"Quick, you are loosing air due to the hijackers opening the airlock..."
"I'll open the emergency panel and see if I can work out a way to hand crank it shut." - "OK, that's a Routine Mechanic check"
"I'll hack the control console to bypass the commands from the bridge." - "Ok that sounds like a Difficult Electronics(Computers) check, it is a security door after all"
"I'll remote access the life support to push a little extra our way" - "Good idea, that is an easy Engineering(Life Support) check"
"I'll use my Art(Instrument) skill to help" - "... huh! ..."
"I'll pick up the Entertainer and shove him into the gap in the valve" - "Yeah, that'll do it".
 
I also think that players desperately trying to get their character into the limelight is a problem not a solution. In cooperative story telling part of the cooperation is knowing that this is not your scene and let the other person shine for once.

It also means the referee is no longer adjudicating the resolution of challenges they established over a significant amount of design and tuning time, but is responding on the fly to whatever random gibberish the players decide to come up with.

"Quick, you are loosing air due to the hijackers opening the airlock..."
"I'll open the emergency panel and see if I can work out a way to hand crank it shut." - "OK, that's a Routine Mechanic check"
"I'll hack the control console to bypass the commands from the bridge." - "Ok that sounds like a Difficult Electronics(Computers) check, it is a security door after all"
"I'll remote access the life support to push a little extra our way" - "Good idea, that is an easy Engineering(Life Support) check"
"I'll use my Art(Instrument) skill to help" - "... huh! ..."
"I'll pick up the Entertainer and shove him into the gap in the valve" - "Yeah, that'll do it".
that last one should have been first...
 
Loosing... I think you mean losing. :)

i would have it be the player suggesting the skills and actions, not the referee imposing the task library. I loath task library games.
 
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Loosing... I think you mean losing.
Thank you for your diligence, I'll try to be more careful in future. EDIT 🤪
Also it should be the player suggesting the skills and actions, not the referee imposing the task library. I loath task library games.
Not in any of the classic adventures (i.e. adventures that are classics, not CT adventures). There the skill checks are laid out quite clearly. Plus the rule book also gives examples of when specific skills checks are made.

That not withstanding, in my example the players did suggest the actions. It was the well prepared referee who considered what skill was appropriate for that action.

I loath games where the players make feeble "I'll use my Electronics skill" without actually describing the action they are taking. It is lazy and means the referee might as well just make up the story without their involvement at all.

The players are the story tellers, and I prefer it if they focus on their actions in story terms not telling me what skill they are using in game mechanic terms. The referee puts their stories in context of the rules and decides the game mechanic to be used. Players can suggest specific skills to use but, with the limited number of skills, that should be obvious from the context.

In a really well run game, the referee would have their skills noted down and after they suggest an action he would just ask for a roll (or not if he thinks it is well within the capability of the character) without even mentioning any skill, he would simply determine the result of the check against whatever skill he felt was appropriate and describe the outcome.
 
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As I mentioned in another thread, I could have sworn there was already something like this, but I wasn't able to find it anywhere.

MegaTraveller? TNE? Mongoose 1st?
 
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