New poster with combat and skills queries

[DerLautrer]

Does a riposte have to be with the weapon that parried? If I parry with my dagger can I riposte with my rapier? Can I parry with my sheild and riposte with my sword? I don't think the rules say either way.

How about learning a Advanced Skill "Riposte" which adds, after a successfull test a bonus to a parry after the attacker missed.
You could also invent a skill "Feint" and.... :roll:
Maby I should write a Supplement :wink:

 

[simonh]

1)In eariler version of RQ, parrying was probably more important than armor. A parry from most weapons stopped more damage than wearing plate armor. In fact, a parry ussually stopped all the damage from practically any weapon.

True, but parries down work all the time, otherwise nobody would ever get damaged. It's what happens when normal defensive actions fail, as they inevitably will, that usualy determines the outcome.

2) Special success/implaes and what not drastically increased the lethality of thrusting weapons in RQ. A shortsword, spear, rapier,or dagger could be just as lethal as a big chopping weapon. RQ2 had the max+rolled impales, and RQ3 had critical implaes double double max damage and bypassing armor!

Also true, but high damage weapons double up from a higher base, so they maintained their advantage. it's true impaling weapons had an advantage here, but slashing weapons still did extra damage. Imapling weapons weren't the be-all and end-all of RQ3 combat.

3) Closing rules in RQ3 allowed someone with a small light weapon the option of moving in on someone using a big weapon and really putting them at a disadvantage.

Closing was a favourite manoeuver of mine, but it can be a dangerous gambit. Big, hefty oponents can usualy do a lot of hurt in unarmed combat too under RQ3.

So, up to now, skill was far more important than weapon damage dice in RQ. Now the heavy weapons pretty much blow through the defenses.

Despite the Rurik example, and situations like that certainly did happen, as a GM I noticed that most PC deaths, or near death experiences came from high-damage dealing opponents. As a player I occasionaly saw inexperienced RQ GM's puting in small numbers of heavy duty opponents, expecting the PCs to gang up and marmalise them (which they usualy did), but once in a while a player character would get cut in half by an NPCthe GM expected to be a walkover due to their low skill. Perhaps your experiences differ, but that's what I saw happening.


Simon Hibbs

 

[Archer]

While the Parry is a bit of a concern, I must say I find that I am more concerned about the trouble with Dodge. Requiring a crit to successfully dodge all damage sounds ludicrous to me.

As someone who has practised kyokushin karate in my youth, I know that dodging and moving are the best defense. Hard blocks (where you effectively stop an opponents punch or kick with your body) are painful, soft blocks (where you redirect the blow with your body) can also be painful. The best option is to constantly move. And yes, it is not easy dodging, but it is easier than to make a hard block and much easier than a soft block.

Taking minimum damage could be a valid result, but I think that dodge should have a greater chance to actually dodge all damage. If I am to use the results connected with each level of success for dodge, I think I will have to increase the chance of rolling a crit for Dodge (1/2% sounds reasonable). And that is not a good solution, since it changes one of the fundamental rules of the game.

 

[simonh]

While the Parry is a bit of a concern, I must say I find that I am more concerned about the trouble with Dodge. Requiring a crit to successfully dodge all damage sounds ludicrous to me.

Me too. Also note that damage boosting magic looks like it will be fairly common, drasticaly increasing the minimum damage that many characters and NPCs will be dealing.


Simon Hibbs

 

[Archer]

While the Parry is a bit of a concern, I must say I find that I am more concerned about the trouble with Dodge. Requiring a crit to successfully dodge all damage sounds ludicrous to me.

Me too. Also note that damage boosting magic looks like it will be fairly common, drasticaly increasing the minimum damage that many characters and NPCs will be dealing.


Simon Hibbs

I am afraid it begins to feel a lot like D&D for me. Seems only way to really be protected is to wear plate mail (8 AP), and hopefully add some enchantments to boost that AP.

Either I will use Crit = 1/2 % for Dodge (I want the minimum damage to be a result), or I will have to make it dodge all damage on success - removing the minimum damage result.

 

[tkdmitch]

As a side issue, why don't military picks impale? Surely that's kind of the point of them? They're penetrative weapons not percussive?

Mitch

 

[Sigtrygg]

The way I see it is the dodge is a last second thing done as a reaction to a successful attack.

If you want an easier time staying out of harm's way use a "use other skill" action and an athletics check to stay away from your enemy.

But once you've committed yourself to hitting him, you're at risk of getting hit back, and it takes an exceptional dodge to achieve that.

One thing I am going to allow is a character to hold a shield as cover, so it adds its armour to a hit location or three, depending upon the sizeof the shield and the area the player wants to guard.

 

[Sigtrygg]

As a side issue, why don't military picks impale? Surely that's kind of the point of them? They're penetrative weapons not percussive?

Mitch

I've wondered the same about daggers - that's what they were for after all

 

[Vadrus]

The way I see it is the dodge is a last second thing done as a reaction to a successful attack.

If you want an easier time staying out of harm's way use a "use other skill" action and an athletics check to stay away from your enemy.

But once you've committed yourself to hitting him, you're at risk of getting hit back, and it takes an exceptional dodge to achieve that.

One thing I am going to allow is a character to hold a shield as cover, so it adds its armour to a hit location or three, depending upon the sizeof the shield and the area the player wants to guard.

It all depends on what lvl of realism you are after, games need a simple structure so that numbers of people can participate and things can be kept track of, unfortunately real combat is chaotic and very rarely has a well thought out structure to it.

TBH the whole idea of a dodge skill is artificial, any combat training includes how to avoid an opponent as part of the flow, both by movement and actively blocking/parrying, you don't learn a separate Dodge ability. It is very much a game construct.

IMO most games dwell too much on the mechanics of a 1 v 1 duel situation and forget that in most game combats it's a swirl of combatants where you're as likely to be stabbed in the side by the opponent you thought your mate was fighting rather than the opponent safely infront of you attracting most of your attention.

I had hoped MRQ would be an advancement in game mechanics that might improve things, unfortunately (for me anyway) it harks back too much to the past and doesn't bring anything new to the table. It just doesn't have anything that makes me think 'now that's a good idea!', instead it's more of 'been there, slain that, bought the T-shirt, put it on the shelf and forget about it'.

And don't worry this is my last negative post as the rules are now set so no point me harping on any longer, I'm moving on in search of the game I'm after and wish all the best to those that are satisfied with the new MRQ I hope you have many happy campaigns.


Vadrus

 

[Archer]

But once you've committed yourself to hitting him, you're at risk of getting hit back, and it takes an exceptional dodge to achieve that.

Well, not really. That is why you spar when training martial arts, to learn how to predict what the opponent will do, and "move with" him, so that you can twist and turn away from his punches and kicks (though kyokushin is a "hard" style that focus on blocks more).
You do not enter the range of reach of an opponent without carefully "test" him. To do that is to invite injury.

But then, even in martial arts, you get hits that hurt when "dodging". The question is, if these should in an RPG even be considered loss of hit points. I do not think so.
Hitpoints are too poor a mechanic to represent difference in "pain" and "injury". Both can slow you down, and make you loose. Though pain fades quickly, while real injuries take time to recover from, if ever. I interpret Hitpoints to be the latter, real injuries.

The trick in of "dodging" in kyokushin is to turn an an attack that would hurt you into one that misses or is just painful. You do this by "reading" your opponent, and try to keep vital parts away from his attack. And this takes reflexes, which is why you spar again and again.
Timing, "reading of opponent" and reflexes are everything.

I have a hard time relating a dodge skill to anything but these trained reflexes and reading of an opponents motions, so perhaps that is my problem with the dodge skill. It is an artificial construct that has nothing to do with how sparring or fighting in martial arts really is.

 

[simonh]

I am afraid it begins to feel a lot like D&D for me.

Surely not that bad!?

Seems only way to really be protected is to wear plate mail (8 AP), and hopefully add some enchantments to boost that AP.

I think the rules can certainly be fixed. The majority of the rules seem to me to be pretty well thought out, it's just a few glaring howlers that seem odd. Either these will prove in play to be not as bad as they first seem, or they will be easily fixed with house rules.

Dodging is still an important and useful skill, it just has it's limitations. Regarding jugernought characters, these are inevitable and actualy pretty realistic. Historicaly anyone who could afford armour generaly wore as much as they could carry, and for good reason.


Simon Hibbs

 

[atgxtg]

I am afraid it begins to feel a lot like D&D for me. Seems only way to really be protected is to wear plate mail (8 AP), and hopefully add some enchantments to boost that AP.

I'm with you here. Tood bad the plate only stops 6 now.

Too many of MRQ's rules are D&D inspired. Combat has become an attrtion game; Strike Ranks an intitative system, the incusion of attacks or opportunity (free attacks), the "big money" magic system, improvement being controlled by spending game awards, feats (legendary abilties), saving throws rather than Stat rolls or the resistance table, a hit point system that lets peole take unreasonable amounts of damage with no effect.


No only does it feel like D&D. If feels like an inferior copy of D&D.

I have a supicion that the frabid fans of MRQ are all D&D plearers or want to be.

 

[atgxtg]

It does make me worrky about someone wielding two kite shields though...

Just say no.

Hyrum.

I am thing of just saying 1/5xSTR and DEX requirements. or maybe add half of the second weapon's AP

Heck, I wrote the ability, the least I can do is try to make sure it doesn't mess stuff up.

Then there are nightmares about multiarmed creatures with four shields....

 

[HyrumOWC]

I am afraid it begins to feel a lot like D&D for me. Seems only way to really be protected is to wear plate mail (8 AP), and hopefully add some enchantments to boost that AP.

I'm with you here. Tood bad the plate only stops 6 now.

Too many of MRQ's rules are D&D inspired. Combat has become an attrtion game; Strike Ranks an intitative system, the incusion of attacks or opportunity (free attacks), the "big money" magic system, improvement being controlled by spending game awards, feats (legendary abilties), saving throws rather than Stat rolls or the resistance table, a hit point system that lets peole take unreasonable amounts of damage with no effect.


No only does it feel like D&D. If feels like an inferior copy of D&D.

I have a supicion that the frabid fans of MRQ are all D&D plearers or want to be.

I'm probably going to get death threats for this but... D&D did manage to get some things right.

Having designed products for d20 since before 3rd Edition was out, I can categorically say that MRQ feels nothing like D&D. What they have done is taken some of the "advances" in RPG design over the past 15 years and incorporated them, which IMHO isn't a bad thing.

I DESPISED RQ2/3 strike ranks. Hated, hated, hated it. The new system is worlds better, in my opinion.

Legendary Abilities are cool. They give characters something to shoot for, and they make 150% Warsword Rune Lord different, from a mechanical perspective. Again, something good IMHO.

Free attacks make you think about where you move in combat, which in turn makes it more tactical without being incredibly slow. I like the idea, but then I like AoO in d20 and have never found them to be confusing or slow.

And how in the world does the system let you take "unreasonable amounts of damage with no effect"? Sure there aren't total hitpoint, but there doesn't need to be. Play out a combat or two and you'll notice that people will be dropping left and right due to failed Resilience rolls.

Hyrum.

 

[atgxtg]

I'm probably going to get death threats for this but... D&D did manage to get some things right.

Having designed products for d20 since before 3rd Edition was out, I can categorically say that MRQ feels nothing like D&D.

It feels like D&D 3.0 to me. AD&D is adifferent beast. I think that 3.0 did incoprate a lot of good idea into D&D. Many of those ideas were long overdue (skills, unfied game mechanic), but 3E did incoprorate them.

What they have done is taken some of the "advances" in RPG design over the past 15 years and incorporated them, which IMHO isn't a bad thing.

I DESPISED RQ2/3 strike ranks. Hated, hated, hated it. The new system is worlds better, in my opinion.

Wow. I loved Strike Ranks. Especially the RQ2 version. I liked the fact that character could sometimes be foreced into using a weaker spell becuase it would be quicker.
I think the new intitiative system is an attempt to turn RQ more into D&D.

Legendary Abilities are cool. They give characters something to shoot for, and they make 150% Warsword Rune Lord different, from a mechanical perspective. Again, something good IMHO.

They are feats. Some are just like a D&D feat, others are chanbara style supernaturalpowers (wall walking). IMO, "Yuk"

Free attacks make you think about where you move in combat, which in turn makes it more tactical without being incredibly slow. I like the idea, but then I like AoO in d20 and have never found them to be confusing or slow.

Attacks of Opportunity. RQ handled mostof this with the strike ranke system that you hated.

And how in the world does the system let you take "unreasonable amounts of damage with no effect"? Sure there aren't total hitpoint, but there doesn't need to be. Play out a combat or two and you'll notice that people will be dropping left and right due to failed Resilience rolls.

Hyrum.

Simple. You can have a character with 1 or 2 HP left in each hit location walking, runinning and fighting withno problems nd requring no resiliancew tests.

Essentially the lack of totoal hit points requires that a location be taken oto zero before a character is impaired in anyway. Since damage is spread out through seven hit locations, it ends up being like having 30 hit points instead of 12.

Run a MRQ fight with Total hit points and watch how much faster everything drops.

 

[Archer]

[LONG POSTING, you have been warned]

I'm probably going to get death threats for this but... D&D did manage to get some things right.

That I can agree upon. The d20+value vs DC is a simple yet brilliant mechanic, which allows players to roll all their rolls, but still they have only an incling about if their character suceeded or not.
As a GM I love that. Saves me a lot of rolling dice.

Having designed products for d20 since before 3rd Edition was out, I can categorically say that MRQ feels nothing like D&D. What they have done is taken some of the "advances" in RPG design over the past 15 years and incorporated them, which IMHO isn't a bad thing.

After seeing the final product (.pdf form, book should arrive next week), I have to agree with you. They have botched some things (halving), but the rest seems pretty solid. So far I have barely had to read any of the rules throughly, because I have just glanced at the mechanics and I know how it works. It is intuative and simple. No BRP Clone/Derivative has managed to be so simple before. That is a good thing in my book.

I DESPISED RQ2/3 strike ranks. Hated, hated, hated it. The new system is worlds better, in my opinion.

I have to agree upon that. But that is just because it is exactly like the old DoD'91 (Drakar och Demoner 91 a swedish BRP+D&D style setting) works. It works very well, and smooth. It also guarantees that it is not always the most agile person that acts first.

Legendary Abilities are cool. They give characters something to shoot for, and they make 150% Warsword Rune Lord different, from a mechanical perspective. Again, something good IMHO.

They work pretty much on a slightly upsouped scale as the Heroic Ablities (Hjälteförmågor) from the swedish Drakar och Demoner. You even have Hero Points that work the same way

Free attacks make you think about where you move in combat, which in turn makes it more tactical without being incredibly slow. I like the idea, but then I like AoO in d20 and have never found them to be confusing or slow.

I have always only used AoO for things that are obvious. Like turning your back to an enemy and run, casting a spell in front of a sword weilding maniac, etc.
Not cared much about AoO that is the result of moving through grids etc.
But for what I have used them, they worked without problem. I think they only become problematic when you start using Miniatures and grids, because that adds a whole other dimension of things to keep track of.
Not that Minis are bad, they are excellent for knowing relative position (albeit this is urealistic) of combatants.

And how in the world does the system let you take "unreasonable amounts of damage with no effect"? Sure there aren't total hitpoint, but there doesn't need to be. Play out a combat or two and you'll notice that people will be dropping left and right due to failed Resilience rolls.

Hyrum.

Not unreasonable amounts of damage (not like D&D), more like it will be very hard to drop someone quick with a dagger to the chest. 1. Because dagger does little damage. 2. Because hit locations are random.
Had you used Total Hit points, a few dagger thrusts would drop you eventually, even if you did not hit the same hit location. Damage is accumulative.

Without Total Hit points, you are going to be able to take many more dagger hits, because in general it will not deal enough damage in one location to drop you on the first hit. So you end up having to stab someone until you are lucky to hit a hit location a second or third time.
This is not "taking unreasonable amounts of damage", but it is being able to take more damage than in previous RQ/BRP/BRP Derivatives.

It was one of the modifications I did when I GMed Drakar och Demoner (already twice mentioned swedish RPG), which system is RQ with skills % replaced by a 1-20 scale rolled against with a d20. Scale of damage are same, scale of hitpoints / hit location are same, same hit locations, same characteristics, same Characteristic rolls, same initiative rolls, etc.

I am glad to see that MRQ has solved one of the greatest breakers; Plate armor at 8 AP. 6 AP are more reasonable, since you will not need a great axe/great sword just to inflict a few points of damage.
At 8 AP very few characters wielding a longsword (1d8 damage) would be able to even scare you with their damage rolls.

 

[simonh]

I am glad to see that MRQ has solved one of the greatest breakers; Plate armor at 8 AP. 6 AP are more reasonable, since you will not need a great axe/great sword just to inflict a few points of damage.
At 8 AP very few characters wielding a longsword (1d8 damage) would be able to even scare you with their damage rolls.

They had to scale down armour, because weapons nolonger do double damage on a special success, and the new criticals are less common too.

I suspect that damage enhancing magic will be even more valuable in this than in previous versions of RQ.


Simon Hibbs

 

[DerLautrer]

Play out a combat or two and you'll notice that people will be dropping left and right due to failed Resilience rolls.

That's right! I played 3 "test" combats with one of my gamegroup members. And It feels a little like "The riddle of steel" combat with less combat moves, but nearly as deadly as TROS.
I think my gamegroup will run, if they are outnumbered by broos.
That's good! :twisted: