New players had an intersting lesson...

F33D

Mongoose
I was running some new players (new to Trav not RPG's) through a little game recently just to give them a feel for the mechanics. I gave them an armed Scout as a ship. They wanted to try some intra-system pirating (after finding out that it is impossible to accurately predict exact jump in locations for ships). They placed themselves half way between two populated planets about as far distant as Earth is from Jupiter.

What they discovered was that even a ship with just a 1G M-drive travels SO fast at midpoint that it covers ~100,000km in 30 seconds. Making an attack almost impossible. They cannot "hang out" at either planet waiting for ships as they would be too conspicuous.

It's fun watching these guys figure this stuff out and come up with solutions. They understood "space combat" and stuff from watching Star Wars and what not.
 
Did they enquire about the capacity to lay mines?

Given what was mentioned I couldn't help wondering if they realise if they can't chase a target, immobilising it might work better but they better hope it doesn't draw the wrong sort of attention!
 
And that's why dumb pirates starve. Why are they 'attacking' ships so far out? Why is that particular ship out by the gas giant, refueling? Then hit it before, during or just after refueling when it's most vulnerable otherwise hunt at the most popular 100d mark where they're at their slowest.

Next we'll hear they were fishing with pulse lasers.
 
Hopeless said:
Did they enquire about the capacity to lay mines?

Given what was mentioned I couldn't help wondering if they realise if they can't chase a target, immobilising it might work better but they better hope it doesn't draw the wrong sort of attention!

No. I hadn't thought of it either. If I can think of a way that they could actually work (my game has no hand waive except for Jump, grav drive and the like) I will suggest it to them. Thanks!
 
Reynard said:
And that's why dumb pirates starve. Why are they 'attacking' ships so far out?

Because if you loiter near a world you'll stick out like a sore thumb and end up dead real quick.



Reynard said:
Why is that particular ship out by the gas giant, refueling?

They weren't. Please actually READ a post before replying.

This is about the 2nd or 3rd time in a week that you've responded to something that didn't exist. :?:
 
"Because if you loiter near a world you'll stick out like a sore thumb and end up dead real quick."

If you would actually read the ENCOUNTERS section, the vast majority of encounters are around a few important locations INCLUDING the 100d area. That is where pirates hang out as mentioned in the Core Book and Scoundrel. They don't lay in wait in deep space. It's is not supposed to be the flight of spacer wannabes. I'm assuming they actually have spacer skills and would have known you don't intercept or attack something at full acceleration.... or didn't the referee mention that to them?

"Why is that particular ship out by the gas giant, refueling?"
"They weren't. Please actually READ a post before replying."

And there was my mix up reading the mention of Jupiter. However, most bodies out to Jupiter's orbit are, get this, gas giants and their moons! Still, why in any sane universe would they sit and wait where they can only hope something happens to fly by unless they happen to know a particular ship will be there? I noticed you never mentioned such an arraignment so they were hunting without a plan like wannabes. READ your own post! The rules work when you actually follow them.
 
Reynard said:
If you would actually read the ENCOUNTERS section,

I run my own game "world". Logic dominates. Anyway, you didn't answer as to why you aren't reading the posts before replying. I will now stop answering you until you explain your lack of willingness to actually read posts you reply to.
 
Ah, understand now. Your world, your 'logic' and obviously your twisting of the rules to again prove how bad the game is. Gotcha. Good lesson for newcomers.
 
Hopeless said:
Did they enquire about the capacity to lay mines?

Given what was mentioned I couldn't help wondering if they realise if they can't chase a target, immobilising it might work better but they better hope it doesn't draw the wrong sort of attention!


Hopeless, I think I figured out a simple mine. All one needs is the flight path. Super easy once a ship sets out for a known destination if you have its G's also. You leave the floating "mine" with the data of when the ship will be in range (a few kilometers). A couple minutes before, the mine activates and quickly scans passively where the ship should be and nudges itself into the path. There is no time for the ship's automated avoidance system to react. Impact with mine will cause a lot of damage.
 
The three examples i know about;

1) Babylon V In the Beginning as well as Season I think 4 during the Shadows-Vorlon war mines were planted on asteroids and detonated once the ship(s) were passing near enough to be effected,
2) The Lost Fleet series of books had jump points mined to catch incoming ships but that is more war orientated,
3) Firefly pilot episode had one literally used more like a satellite transmitter declaring a fake SOS to draw off the Alliance ship long enough so they could escape.

The main problem we have is that we don't know what else is in your star system ergo why when you mentioned Jupiter it was assumed they were hiding out on one of the moons rather than waiting out in the open.

Your idea above might work better if its part of an asteroid belt or something that's already there so would register as normal to a ship's sensors automated or not.

So are there any other sub plots involved?

For example was there a conflict waged recently explaining how they got their weaponry or will you run a game where they raid an abandoned mining facility for supplies and maybe a base to operate from?

My first reaction to the post was thinking if they were located between two worlds why not run trading missions for a while thereby build up the knowledge they would need to go pirate?

Might want to see how they react if another ship tries to pirate them instead so their target becomes the hunter?
 
They wanted to try some intra-system pirating (after finding out that it is impossible to accurately predict exact jump in locations for ships). They placed themselves half way between two populated planets about as far distant as Earth is from Jupiter.

What they discovered was that even a ship with just a 1G M-drive travels SO fast at midpoint that it covers ~100,000km in 30 seconds. Making an attack almost impossible. They cannot "hang out" at either planet waiting for ships as they would be too conspicuous.

It's fun watching these guys figure this stuff out and come up with solutions. They understood "space combat" and stuff from watching Star Wars and what not.

It both is and isn't possible to predict jump locations accurately - the more precise your initial calculations and the better your divert power check, the closer you'll be to the original plotted 'jump-in' point.
The problem is that the jump in point is probably only a hair outside the 100D limit of the mainworld, which as you noted is not a safe place for a ship with nefarious intentions to lurk.

This is where preparation is key; there is a thing in the background called 'Jump Tapes' - essentially pre-plotted, commercially available jump calculations into and out of a given area of local space based on accurate astrographic surveys, which most civilian ships apparently use; it's the equivalent of buying the 2015 SATNAV files for country X.

Slipping someone a set of doctored files (or introducing a hostile Agent software in some other way) can land them out in the middle of nowhere and ripe for plundering.

There are plenty of ways to make piracy 'work', but most of them involve preparation off the ship - be it getting doctored computer files, armed personnel or a bomb on board the target, and acquiring intel/false system fleet ID codes/patrol & convoy schedules before setting out, rather than just stooging around a system looking to fire lasers at someone.

But, yes, if a ship's up to intrasystem transit speeds, matching velocity will take a long time and be obvious that you're doing so. Hit someone around a planet whilst they're going nice and slow, or else give them a reason to slow down - a "Free Trader Beowulf" response
 
F33D said:
Hopeless, I think I figured out a simple mine. All one needs is the flight path. Super easy once a ship sets out for a known destination if you have its G's also. You leave the floating "mine" with the data of when the ship will be in range (a few kilometers). A couple minutes before, the mine activates and quickly scans passively where the ship should be and nudges itself into the path. There is no time for the ship's automated avoidance system to react. Impact with mine will cause a lot of damage.
1) A couple minutes before? What is the maneuverability of the mine? At the speeds the ship is going a object with only a couple minutes... As I always say, I'm no math and science whiz but I believe it would have to be a really, really, difficult task (sorry, don't have the book at hand for the task difficulty level descriptions) to accurately calculate and plot the paths to drop the mine in on this precise of an intercept.

2) If traveling along a path in the vastness of space I see something that may cross it, or even just come near it (near as in space distance relative), I'd take note. Again, I'm no math and science whiz, but I'd think for a nominal cost in time and fuel one could change course slightly, which could be significant with the time and distances involved.

3) Where is the ship? In your view of things the pirate ship has sensors powerful enough to see other ships and accurately predict their course. Works both ways. Why wouldn't all ships track others within sensor range? Some ship takes a strange path: call traffic control. Specifically takes a path to cross mine and then changes course to go in a trajectory which has no obvious purpose other than to "hang out" and possibly intercept... call in the cavalry and take evasive measures.

Also note that depending on setting, it is probably a very, very, bad thing to buy/sell/possess mines and certainly to drop them in space lanes.

I'm a big opponent to the likelihood of piracy in "civilized" space but the premise does have some potential. Travel between points in the same system. I'll not hand you a page from my pirate handbook though. No pirate will last long if they give away all their secrets.

As per rule 6 of my pirate handbook I will give a couple tips and let it slip that trying to snatch up a ship that has just come out of jump is, well, as per rule 5 of my pirate handbook I'll nicely say "unproductive" instead of what I'm thinking. Grab a ship full o fuel matey in case ya be needin ta make yer escape.
 
locarno24 said:
This is where preparation is key; there is a thing in the background called 'Jump Tapes' - essentially pre-plotted, commercially available jump calculations into and out of a given area of local space based on accurate astrographic surveys, which most civilian ships apparently use; it's the equivalent of buying the 2015 SATNAV files for country X.

Slipping someone a set of doctored files (or introducing a hostile Agent software in some other way) can land them out in the middle of nowhere and ripe for plundering.

There are plenty of ways to make piracy 'work', but most of them involve preparation off the ship - be it getting doctored computer files, armed personnel or a bomb on board the target, and acquiring intel/false system fleet ID codes/patrol & convoy schedules before setting out, rather than just stooging around a system looking to fire lasers at someone.

But, yes, if a ship's up to intrasystem transit speeds, matching velocity will take a long time and be obvious that you're doing so. Hit someone around a planet whilst they're going nice and slow, or else give them a reason to slow down - a "Free Trader Beowulf" response

I think this was part of an episode of the first season of Babylon V or was it the Thirdspace movie where they were trying to check raids by Bandits with them realising someone was feeding them the flight path of suitable prey.

Having a patsy aboard may also work although how would you handle someone leaving some kind of emp device hidden aboard?

An override in the computer bringing them out of jump space where they want them with no one aware what's happened to them so if they're careful the scheme can be repeated but only after a fair while to avoid suspicion...
 
locarno24 said:
It both is and isn't possible to predict jump locations accurately - the more precise your initial calculations and the better your divert power check, the closer you'll be to the original plotted 'jump-in' point.

The problem is that the jump in point is probably only a hair outside the 100D limit of the mainworld, which as you noted is not a safe place for a ship with nefarious intentions to lurk.


In MGT the Astro check has no bearing on the accuracy of jump-in point. Only the Eng divert power. There is no listed way for an outside ship to predict point of entry for an inbound ship. Good point about lurking outside the 100D.

In MGT jump tapes aren't in use. Most ships (CRB) plot course on way to 100D limit.

locarno24 said:
There are plenty of ways to make piracy 'work', but most of them involve preparation off the ship - be it getting doctored computer files, armed personnel or a bomb on board the target, and acquiring intel/false system fleet ID codes/patrol & convoy schedules before setting out, rather than just stooging around a system looking to fire lasers at someone.

The "get 'em on the ground" tactic has been the most workable for me as a player over the decades.
 
CosmicGamer said:
1) A couple minutes before? What is the maneuverability of the mine? At the speeds the ship is going a object with only a couple minutes... As I always say, I'm no math and science whiz but I believe it would have to be a really, really, difficult task (sorry, don't have the book at hand for the task difficulty level descriptions) to accurately calculate and plot the paths to drop the mine in on this precise of an intercept.

Once you have the departure data it is a simple task for a Nav comp. Too simple to worry about in fact.

CosmicGamer said:
2) If traveling along a path in the vastness of space I see something that may cross it, or even just come near it (near as in space distance relative), I'd take note. Again, I'm no math and science whiz, but I'd think for a nominal cost in time and fuel one could change course slightly, which could be significant with the time and distances involved.

1) If you do spot it (it will be the computer not you) it will spot a small object that just CLEARED the ship's path and is moving AWAY. A human will never be in this decision loop. You can't think fast enough.

CosmicGamer said:
3) Where is the ship? In your view of things the pirate ship has sensors powerful enough to see other ships and accurately predict their course. Works both ways. Why wouldn't all ships track others within sensor range? Some ship takes a strange path: call traffic control. Specifically takes a path to cross mine and then changes course to go in a trajectory which has no obvious purpose other than to "hang out" and possibly intercept... call in the cavalry and take evasive measures.

The ship is crossing space at a right angle at mid-point. With a digital camera I bought yesterday I could spot the ship leaving orbit at that range. I don't care if they see my ship. I'm on a different heading days away from them. You don't have an accurate understanding of the space and distances involved. Nor how Trav ships move intra-system. Sorry, it would take pages to bring you up to speed.
 
F33D said:
Reynard said:
And that's why dumb pirates starve. Why are they 'attacking' ships so far out?

Because if you loiter near a world you'll stick out like a sore thumb and end up dead real quick.



Reynard said:
Why is that particular ship out by the gas giant, refueling?

They weren't. Please actually READ a post before replying.

This is about the 2nd or 3rd time in a week that you've responded to something that didn't exist. :?:

I have a suggestion, gas giants often have rings, a pirate ship could hide within the rings of a gas giant, they are said to be 100 meters thick. It should be safe to hide in a gas giants rings, the ring particles are all moving in the same direction in circular orbits around the planet, the relative velocity between them and them and the pirate ship shouldn't be that great. The ring particles would bounce off the hull of the pirate ship just like hail in a hail storm, it shouldn't be too much trouble. If they are inside the rings, their potential victims wouldn't see them when they went to refuel at the gas giant. Perhaps they could refuel in the rings themselves if the ring particles are made of ice.
 
F33D said:
What they discovered was that even a ship with just a 1G M-drive travels SO fast at midpoint that it covers ~100,000km in 30 seconds. Making an attack almost impossible.

Maybe the referee was not explaining things well enough.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
F33D said:
What they discovered was that even a ship with just a 1G M-drive travels SO fast at midpoint that it covers ~100,000km in 30 seconds. Making an attack almost impossible.

Maybe the referee was not explaining things well enough.

More than likely they were distracted by a Troll. What WERE you doing there?
 
F33D said:
ShawnDriscoll said:
F33D said:
What they discovered was that even a ship with just a 1G M-drive travels SO fast at midpoint that it covers ~100,000km in 30 seconds. Making an attack almost impossible.

Maybe the referee was not explaining things well enough.

More than likely they were distracted by a Troll. What WERE you doing there?
You mean one of these?
trolldyd.jpg

How did it get aboard their starship?
;)
 
F33D said:
it will be the computer not you
F33D said:
it will spot a small object
Read and comprehend before you post instead of jumping to illogical conclusions. I never mention trying to detect "small objects". When I say "see" something on a ship, it refers to "seeing" on displays using data from the ships sensors and not peering out a window and trying to spot things with your own eyes and calculate speed and course on a slide rule. Was this how the pirates accurately dropped their mine? Of course it will be the ships sensors and computer doing the work and providing the data to the crew.

Computer: "The ship with transponder ID 12hj345kh will be entering our travel corridor at coordinates xyz at time T." While this may be hours or even days before your arrival and they will be long gone, why take chances as this is quite improbable and suspicious (see the mirror comment below).

Space Port Flight control computer: "The ship with transponder ID 12hj345kh is not following a registered flight plan."
or when filing a flight plan Computer: "The flight plan for ship with transponder ID 12hj345kh is in error." As it's "right angle" path would not be efficiently taking the ship between known logical points.

Quote A)
F33D said:
You can't think fast enough.
To react to a ship traveling a vast distance away and make a small course adjustment so that you never have to come near the same path they did?

AND Quote B)
F33D said:
Once you have the departure data it is a simple task for a Nav comp. Too simple to worry about in fact.
For A and B, let me hold up a mirror:
F33D said:
You don't have an accurate understanding of the space and distances involved.
It sounds like this well thought out plan is foiled by a few course adjustments during transit.
F33D said:
Sorry, it would take pages to bring you up to speed.
Thank you for apologizing for not being able to explain things clearly and concisely.
 
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