Neutrinos - Sensor Question
- Thread starter JohnWFox
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rgrove0172
Mongoose
I dont see why not. We can detect Neutrinos fairly easily now. Chlorine detectors, Ring-Imaging detectors etc. Cherenkov radiation can even be viewed directly. I would think it would be somewhat mundane in Traveller's technology.
Detecting them is easy. The trick is more the volume of sensor needed to do so.
At the moment, the 'core' of most neutrino detectors is a dTon or more of water/ice/oth, to have something for the neutrinos to actually interact with - spotting the cerenkov flare is easy, actually having one happen in the region you're looking at isn't. Whilst TL9+ would have infinitely more sensitive optical detectors, you might need to be at a level where you can do something cunning (probably involving gravetics as everything in traveller usually gets handwaved away with gravetics) before you can fit such a sensor on a shipbourne installation and still allow all the other sensors you might want.
I'd therefore say no at TL8 (standard). Also probably no at TL9 (basic civilian). I can see it being something you'd see in the TL10 Basic Military suite, because it has some utility in monitoring nuclear power plants, and spotting nuclear power plants hidden from other sensors is a capability I can see military sensor officers wanting...
At the moment, the 'core' of most neutrino detectors is a dTon or more of water/ice/oth, to have something for the neutrinos to actually interact with - spotting the cerenkov flare is easy, actually having one happen in the region you're looking at isn't. Whilst TL9+ would have infinitely more sensitive optical detectors, you might need to be at a level where you can do something cunning (probably involving gravetics as everything in traveller usually gets handwaved away with gravetics) before you can fit such a sensor on a shipbourne installation and still allow all the other sensors you might want.
I'd therefore say no at TL8 (standard). Also probably no at TL9 (basic civilian). I can see it being something you'd see in the TL10 Basic Military suite, because it has some utility in monitoring nuclear power plants, and spotting nuclear power plants hidden from other sensors is a capability I can see military sensor officers wanting...
rgrove0172
Mongoose
I seem to remember reading somewhere that neutrino emissions are part of the 2300AD Deep Space Sensors - thats Tech 10 i believe.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Once Gravitic tech becomes a mature technology, that should be able to shrink the size of the neutrino detector so that it would be a reasonable ship detection system.
It would be a passive system that would allow you to detect Power Plants and perhaps give you a chance to determine the size (rating) of the plant. It should also be able to tell the difference between a Fission and a Fusion plant.
Likely it could detect Plasma/Fusion weapons as well within shorter ranges.
It would be a passive system that would allow you to detect Power Plants and perhaps give you a chance to determine the size (rating) of the plant. It should also be able to tell the difference between a Fission and a Fusion plant.
Likely it could detect Plasma/Fusion weapons as well within shorter ranges.
I would suspect that there would be some sort of masking technology also available as TL increases. A solar system with a sun in it would be flooded with naturally occurring neutrino's. While it may not be able to block them, you probably could 'bend' their path a bit perhaps to shoot them off in different directions, or to perhaps make it harder to distinguish ones created through a fusion reactor vs ones created in the sun.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Agreed. A Neutrino sensor would basically detect a neutrino and it's source direction. Distributed sensors would be needed to try to pinpoint the location of the source of the neutrinos within a solar system (obviously all those neutrinos coming from the direction of the star are likely from that star).
I would say that a detector is possible at about TL10 or TL11 and that neutrino masking tech would be at TL12 (micro gravity control and micro fusion power).
Once you reach TL12 or TL13, neutrinos are just another type of energy that you are trying to detect.
I would say that a detector is possible at about TL10 or TL11 and that neutrino masking tech would be at TL12 (micro gravity control and micro fusion power).
Once you reach TL12 or TL13, neutrinos are just another type of energy that you are trying to detect.
TL10+ sensor packages have a neutrino detector, which is a passive sensor; I allow a discount if a sensor package only has comms, EMS, and image analysis & display. Neutrino sensors don't work against antimatter power plants, and they won't detect a fusion plant which is turned off, and they might be fooled if a ship flies close enough to a large neutrino source (for example, a star).
Signal absorption coatings, of the sort which can disguise a ship from active sensors in these sensor packages, show up around TL12.
Signal absorption coatings, of the sort which can disguise a ship from active sensors in these sensor packages, show up around TL12.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Sounds reasonable.
Although a ship would not have to fly close to the sun to mask it's neutrino emissions from a particular sensor, it would only have to be "flying out of the sun". So if you want to mask your ship from planetary sensors (and ships in orbit), you could fly towards the planet from sunward.
The HUGE number of neutrinos from any star will overwhelm the sensors and mask anything small like a megaton starship. BUT, once the ship moves out of the line between sensor and star, it will light up the sensors like a lightbulb.
Although a ship would not have to fly close to the sun to mask it's neutrino emissions from a particular sensor, it would only have to be "flying out of the sun". So if you want to mask your ship from planetary sensors (and ships in orbit), you could fly towards the planet from sunward.
The HUGE number of neutrinos from any star will overwhelm the sensors and mask anything small like a megaton starship. BUT, once the ship moves out of the line between sensor and star, it will light up the sensors like a lightbulb.
I used to have Neutrino sensors to detect starships in my games. I've since removed them.
I don't remember quite where, but there was explanation, I believe in one of the TNE materials, that explained that a star such as Sol produces some neutrinos, but we detect hardly any of them even with enormous detectors. The only reason why it produces enough neutrinos that we can detect it here on Earth is the size of Sol and the number of reactions occurring. A starship fusion reactor is going to produce so few neutrinos, and even fewer going towards the general direction of a starship that it isn't reasonable to detect ships by neutrino signature.
I don't remember quite where, but there was explanation, I believe in one of the TNE materials, that explained that a star such as Sol produces some neutrinos, but we detect hardly any of them even with enormous detectors. The only reason why it produces enough neutrinos that we can detect it here on Earth is the size of Sol and the number of reactions occurring. A starship fusion reactor is going to produce so few neutrinos, and even fewer going towards the general direction of a starship that it isn't reasonable to detect ships by neutrino signature.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Agreed about the number of neutrinos and the number we can detect. However, I used the assumption that Gravitic technology would allow for much smaller and more sensitive neutrino detectors, such that by TL10 they could be fit onto smaller starships.
Neutrinos are notoriously hard to detect. There are billions of them streaming through your body every second without interacting at all. They interact so weakly with matter that they can't be detected directly, unlike photons for instance. Currently Neutrino detectors rely on the flash of light that is emitted when a neutrino interacts with an atom of something else, or subtle chemical changes caused by the decay of particles interacted on by a Neutrino.
I'm not sure that gravitics is going to help shrink the size, as gravity has a small impact on subatomic particles, it's the weakest of the four forces anyway and subatomic elementary particles have very little mass to start with - the neutrino especially so as it is essentially massless (but not quite, just almost, mostly).
So, neutrino sensors are redacted from my game, but, of course, YUMV.
G.
I'm not sure that gravitics is going to help shrink the size, as gravity has a small impact on subatomic particles, it's the weakest of the four forces anyway and subatomic elementary particles have very little mass to start with - the neutrino especially so as it is essentially massless (but not quite, just almost, mostly).
So, neutrino sensors are redacted from my game, but, of course, YUMV.
G.
I think gravitic technology is a red herring here since there's no reason why that would affect neutrinos other than to change their direction.
What you would really need to improve their detectability is Nuclear Damper technology, which affects the Strong and Weak forces. The Weak force is responsible for the neutrino's "flavor-changing" as it flips between types (electron-neutrinos, muon-neutrinos, and tau-neutrinos) so it is relevant here. I imagine that it would be possible to use a Nuclear Damper to control the neutrinos' "flavor-changing" (I get the impression that electron-neutrinos are easier to detect than tau- or muon-neutrinos), or even to change them into some other kind of particle or energy to improve their detectability within the sensor. The trick would be in preventing the detection of all the 'unwanted' neutrinos (e.g. getting rid of all the neutrinos produced by stars, and filtering cosmic rays, and especially the honking great fusion reactor that's only a few dozen metres away on the ship itself, which would undoubtedly swamp any onboard detector!)
As always, a bit of research on the internet helps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_interaction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_detector
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_neutrino_problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino
What you would really need to improve their detectability is Nuclear Damper technology, which affects the Strong and Weak forces. The Weak force is responsible for the neutrino's "flavor-changing" as it flips between types (electron-neutrinos, muon-neutrinos, and tau-neutrinos) so it is relevant here. I imagine that it would be possible to use a Nuclear Damper to control the neutrinos' "flavor-changing" (I get the impression that electron-neutrinos are easier to detect than tau- or muon-neutrinos), or even to change them into some other kind of particle or energy to improve their detectability within the sensor. The trick would be in preventing the detection of all the 'unwanted' neutrinos (e.g. getting rid of all the neutrinos produced by stars, and filtering cosmic rays, and especially the honking great fusion reactor that's only a few dozen metres away on the ship itself, which would undoubtedly swamp any onboard detector!)
As always, a bit of research on the internet helps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_interaction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_detector
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_neutrino_problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino
I did find this article discussing such detectors (other than a mention in the wikipedia article about detectors), but they are not small. I am not certain that they would get smaller with higher tech levels (nuclear dampers notwithstanding); sometimes tech has to be big to work.
http://www.mpg.de/1055814/Neutrino_Detector_Start.
There is no mention of how they screen out solar neutrinos though. (also, wouldn't fusion reactors be emitting solar-type neutrinos rather than antineutrinos?)
http://www.mpg.de/1055814/Neutrino_Detector_Start.
There is no mention of how they screen out solar neutrinos though. (also, wouldn't fusion reactors be emitting solar-type neutrinos rather than antineutrinos?)
