Nationality Feats!?!?!?!

[psyclonejack]

Might I just say, WOW. I was reluctant to post on this topic as it seemed to be so . . . uh . . . close to heart for some people, or lets say an empassioned point of intrest. I find when discussing those its better to agree to disagree. But let me just throw some points out to add to the mix.

1) Do StereoTypes exist in reality? Yes. Do ALL people meet the stereotype? NO. But more do than don't. And yes I figure myself in as one that meets several stereotypes. White Boy, Computer Geek, Gamer, not to mention Southerner as people round 'ere are so fond o callin me.

2) Is stereotyping bad? Only when the stereotype tends to be a negative. Should a Game perpetuate it? Again, if it isn't negative, why not? Will playing a stereotyped character in a roleplaying environment force you to make negative comments, or take negative action in your daily life? NO. Look at Macho women with big guns. Talk about stereotypes. Me being a STEREOTYPICAL MALE PIG would love to see women dressed like the game walking around daily. But the doesn't make me lust or crave any more or less when I see a woman that catches my eye. I believe I am right when I say that every country gets a bonus. If the feats where going to be real then a lot of the third world countries would be forced to have feats like under-educated, left-behind, or poor. This isn't the case. And such feats would be bad.

3) Will it impact any of my games? Yes. It will add. Right now everyone that joined the EF is American. How boring. I KNOW that if they had to do it over they would have picked other countries. It was something that just didn't really dawn on them. Had we been roleplaying in Russia, we all would have been russian pilots.

4) Does the excuse "Its just a game" work? NO. There are games that should never be played because of the "vileness" they implore to make common and second nature. Just as I feel one should never play an "EVIL" campaign due to the mindset that one must be in to roleplay such a game. When one starts to dwell on evil acts and plots to act them out in games. It might lead to something, prolly not, but I don't want to take the chance.

5) Should we be so empassioned over a topic such as this? No. There are arenas in which to make a stand against hate speach and crime, -ism talk, and terrorism. This is not the arena. Much more can be earned and gained by volenteering, fund rasing and letter writting.

6) Am I out of points to add at this point in time? YES!

7) Are you glad? Most of you I am sure are very glad.

PsyJack

 

[Agent One]

As the author of the aforementioned national feats, I apologize for upsetting anyone. I didn't intend to insult or offend, I merely wanted to find a mechanic that allowed the RPG to explore the vast differences that exist in humans...and since the show had already shown us that national cultures still existed, I chose to use those lines of demarcation. Plus, national feats were not a new concept - they've been seen in other d20 RPG products before. I guess the bottom line is that if you think any of the feats listed are stereotypes, simply make them available to any human character.

Bruce Graw, Freelance Writer
Author of the EA Factbook, Fiery Trial, and eventually a new book about a certain group whose name begins with T and ends with "mages"

 

[rbowman]

It all depends on how you want to look at it, you see stereotypes as some slur made at real life people, when the actuality of it is, is that it is JUST a game and the characteristics are just there to add to the game and distinguish different nations from one another not to make a REAL LIFE statement... be serious :shock: LOL

When you start taking small things like nationality feats and assuming it is some ill intended poke at various nations in a roleplaying game, then i'm afraid your just starting to look a little TOO HARD into trying to find something to gripe about.

Should we then assume games like Risk promote genocide and war, oh hang on I was the Russia in the last game I played of Supremacy and I invaded USA.. damn doesn't that mean I've just stereotype the Russia as a warmongering country?....

Simple answer... OF COURSE NOT! :lol:

why? well because what is stated or implied in a game is just make believe, fun, or a lighthearted joke or stereotype and has absolutely no bearing on real life or real life opinions in ANY way.

If something as minor as nationality feats can upset you so much I wouldn't read the history for Armageddon 2089 you'd surely have an apoplexy

As much as I hate to even utter the name, it is attitudes such as this that make games like F.A.T.A.L. possible.

Hiding offensive ideas behind "it's jsut a game" (not saying that nationality feats are offensive, nor the idea behind them) is worse than coming out and saying that you endorse them. at least in the latter, the person behind them is being honest. In the former, it is cowardice.

About the nationality feats, I don't find them offensive, but I do think that they shouldn't have been so limiting. There have been a few ideas presented on how to modify them for use by those that do not agree with them as they stand.

 

[Neo]

[

Hiding offensive ideas behind "it's jsut a game" (not saying that nationality feats are offensive, nor the idea behind them) is worse than coming out and saying that you endorse them. at least in the latter, the person behind them is being honest. In the former, it is cowardice.

About the nationality feats, I don't find them offensive, but I do think that they shouldn't have been so limiting. There have been a few ideas presented on how to modify them for use by those that do not agree with them as they stand.

How is it an offensive idea for me not to find nationality feat offensive? you agree so in not finding them offensive yourself does that then make you a coward too?

I have no issue with anyone of any nationality pink, blue, green or psychadelic.. but that doesn't mean I have to seek offense implied or otherwise in everything even racial steretyping..especially when that stereotyping is in a game for gods sake.

I mean please If I was to take offense to every slight implied or otherwise in a game I'd spend half my day or more writing complaining e-mails.

According to the english nationality feats I can choose Savoire Fair, does that then mean I should be offended because it implies all english people are pompous classist bigots who care only for social graces...hmm let me think

NO! :lol: :lol:

Seriously folks, get a grip. Theres enough hurt in the world already without seeking to find it in places it was never and has never been intended.

 

[LoneStranger]

ok I've read over the entire thread here and while I can see why some people would be annoyed, I think people here are overreacting. Mr. Graw, I think you did an outstanding job on the book, I like it very much so. As to the people worried about the limits placed on national feats, either give a list of feats based off the background a person writes or chuck em all together. I mean no one is putting a PPG to anyone's head and forcing you to use them in your game. That's the best part about it, no one outside the RPGA will force you to use practically all the rules in a book.

Well that's my take on it
The Lone Stranger

 

[mdraconis]

Remember ppl, your GM can use as much or as little of the rules as they like. If these traits are offensive to you, ask the GM NOT to include them. Otherwise, I doubt that Mongoose intentionally tried to introduce character traits/feats that are racist. So just enjoy the game. If Mongoose continues to print things you find offensive, you have the power to not purchase the material.

 

[KDLadage]

So many replies... so many that miss the point.

Neo: You missed the point that Rich Bowman was attempting to make. I believe he was saying that someone should either state matter-of-factly that they either find it offensive or do not. But to say that they do not, and that they do not only because it is a game (which has the obvious implication that they would have found such things offensive elsewhere) is a cowardly way out of having to make a stance on a topic. If I am wring here, I am sure he will correct me.

LoneStranger: I have not seen anyone overreact here. Nobody is calling for Mr. Graw's head; nobody is boycotting Mongoose. People are simply concerned that this is a dangerous and slippery slope to begin walking down. Again, I would like to point out that those that have had issue with these feats have not had issues with the feats themselves -- just that the rules issolate them to given cultures. And before you say it, I know that I (as a game master) have the right to ignore such restrictions. That is not the point at all. I can ignore any rule I want to. The point is that the rule in question has the potential to be rather offensive to some people. And this offense is placed in with no gain what-so-ever.

Having the feats, and not tying them with a culture would have been perfectly acceptable. Saying that only the French are this, or the English are that, or the Americans are the other thing -- this gains you nothing in the rule, and can be offensive -- so why have such a restriction? Being able to ignore it is not the point, having the rule there in the first place is.

mdaconis: Again, having the ability to ignore an offensive rule is not the point. HAving the ability to modify an offensive rule is not the point. Having the rule included in the first place, gaining nothing while having the potential to alienate people -- this is the point.

 

[hassanisabbah]

National Feats - So much fuss over such a little idea.... Do you think that if it applied to a fantasy race, or a statistic to say its ok.

There is such a thing as positive sterotyping, and generalisation. Remember the Feat is not automatically assumed to be applied to all members of that nationality, just a special few. So of all the people in the world, the French have produced a few that are exceptionally charming. Prehaps its the accent or the way the words sound togeather, the poetry of the composition of the speaker.

Interestingly lingustics has pointed to several sterotypes in philosophy based on Languages. English philosophers tend towars the possessive and descriptive (and english is a narrative heavy langauge), German to the strucured and logical (much the same as their langauge) and the French towards the expressive and passionate (much like their langauge).

A sterotype exists where the commentry is based on a derogatory idealisation of a group by one or two characteristics. If the French Feat was wear stripy jumper, onions and ride bicycle, then yes that is offence, but to say that among them there are a few that are so charming, is not (most 1st levels citizens are not likely to have charming, rather likely is a profession or skill speciality)

 

[Neo]

So many replies... so many that miss the point.

Neo: You missed the point that Rich Bowman was attempting to make. I believe he was saying that someone should either state matter-of-factly that they either find it offensive or do not. But to say that they do not, and that they do not only because it is a game (which has the obvious implication that they would have found such things offensive elsewhere) is a cowardly way out of having to make a stance on a topic. If I am wring here, I am sure he will correct me.

I didn't miss the point, however the point I was trying to illustrate is that I did not even give the nationality feats a second glance as far as considering them insulting so if I had needed to justify or explain why i didn't find them offensive, then that in itself would have inferred that they noted to me as derogatary enough in some way that I would have needed to give thought to defending my opinion of them... if you see what I mean. But because they do not and have not ever protrayed themselves to me as something people might find even remotely offensive I have never given them that amount of thought to form such a defence for them.

There is nothing cowardly about that stance just a mere statement of fact. I never saw them as and do not see them as offensive in anyway, hence never ever thought about them in any way necessary of forming a defence of my opinion of them.

 

[El Cid]

I think we live in a world where Political Correctness has gone overboard.

Sidney

 

[Aker]

Just for the fun... Is there a nacionality feat for spaniards or basques?

 

[mdraconis]

KDLadage, I didn't miss the point. A can of worms has been opened up over a touchy subject. Honestly, this is a mute point. Nationality Feats are in the book and at least on this printing run, nothing can be done about it. Yes, it is sad that these feats draw up negative emotions in some people and MAY drive them away from the game. But that is life. You won't like everything you read in print. You may find the idea or rule offensive. Write to Mongoose Publishing directly and tell them how you feel. Perhaps next printing or even a second edition, these feats will be removed.
Regardless, any time an idea such as racial/nationality feats, are introduced to the public, some people will find fault with it. AND MY POINT is: There are BILLIONS of people out there and not everyone will agree with each other. It is up to you as an individual to decide on where you stand on this topic. Hell, I have been WAITING for this book for the past two months. So I haven't even seen it yet. When I get it through the Post and read it, then and only then, will I decide how I feel about these feats.

mdraconis 8)

 

[jadrax]

There is such a thing as positive sterotyping, and generalisation. Remember the Feat is not automatically assumed to be applied to all members of that nationality, just a special few. So of all the people in the world, the French have produced a few that are exceptionally charming. Prehaps its the accent or the way the words sound togeather, the poetry of the composition of the speaker.

When you come up with a explination why only the Italians, Greeks and people from Denebian can be good enougth to be a proffesional cricketer. (And be aware, apparently YOU cannot be so without this feat,) Then i would be impressed.

Then we can look at Wealthy, (which is an excellent feat, neatly ending one of the quibbles i had with the game,) and explain why you *have* to be Ameican or chinese. The Royal Family and William Edgars apparently work for a living.

Apparently all countries apart from Argentinea, the Ukrain and Deneb have evolved past placing an import on farming, which eliminates rural englad, france, america and well practically every other country infact.


To an extent feats, like charming, i could almost accept. I wouldent like the limitation, but the french having +1 charisam in limited circumstances is hardly worth getting totally worked up about.

But feats that exclude people, either by dint of saying you must have the feat to gain this, (So called Ruke breaking feats,) or ones that say you poseess a particualler upbring or profession. (there can't be an Archbishop of Cantubury, or if there is then we must have imported him from UIN, India, Israil or the vatican!) are not only insulting, but quite frankly, silly.

This is not a matter of Political Corectness, there is nothing political to be gained from discouraging the use of steriotypes which only seem to have been odopted to lend support for a game mechainic that is available in other products. Although if this idea never reared its head again i would obviously be happy.

 

[jadrax]

Just for the fun... Is there a nacionality feat for spaniards or basques?

Glib-Tongued (your good at lieing and talking yourself up,) and Open-minded, (Your good at questioning if the discription I gave for Glib-Tongued contained any bias.)

 

[Greg Smith]

When you come up with a explination why only the Italians, Greeks and people from Denebian can be good enougth to be a proffesional cricketer. (And be aware, apparently YOU cannot be so without this feat,) Then i would be impressed.

Well the English certainly aren't.

 

[psyclonejack]

When you come up with a explination why only the Italians, Greeks and people from Denebian can be good enougth to be a proffesional cricketer. (And be aware, apparently YOU cannot be so without this feat,) Then i would be impressed.

Well the English certainly aren't.

Neither are us Yank Americans

PsyJack

 

[jadrax]

When you come up with a explination why only the Italians, Greeks and people from Denebian can be good enougth to be a proffesional cricketer. (And be aware, apparently YOU cannot be so without this feat,) Then i would be impressed.

Well the English certainly aren't.

Well obviously *we* should be excluded, but i think australia can be upset that Italy and Greece are clearly beating them. ;o)

 

[KDLadage]

KDLadage, I didn't miss the point.

Actually, your responce emphasizes how much you have, in fact, missed the point.

A can of worms has been opened up over a touchy subject.

What can of worms? A few people on a message baords are asking about a rule included in a recent book that has the potential to be offensive. This is a far cry from a can of worms.

Honestly, this is a mute point.

No, it is not a moot point. It is a point that is very much alive and worth diuscussing because now is when we have the opportunity to ensure that such an oversight as making certain background feats limited to certain cultures and sub-cultures does or does not appear in future books from Mongoose.

Nationality Feats are in the book and at least on this printing run, nothing can be done about it.

Never claimed otherwise.

Yes, it is sad that these feats draw up negative emotions in some people and MAY drive them away from the game. But that is life. You won't like everything you read in print.

Never claimed I would. But the fact that not everyone will like it or that some will never like it is not relevant to the fact that the feats, as presented, may or may not be appropriate.

You may find the idea or rule offensive.

I am not sure if I do or not, yet. I am still weighing the possibilities. I do, however, offensive or not, feel that it was ill-advised to include it as written.

Write to Mongoose Publishing directly and tell them how you feel.

Why? That is what a message baord is for -- instant feedback.

Perhaps next printing or even a second edition, these feats will be removed.

For the love of...

Damnit -- for last time, I DO NOT WANT THE FEATS REMOVED, I WANT THE NATIONAL RESTRICTIONS REMOVED. I would settle for restrictions removed with suggested feats for nationalities -- but I think even that is not needed...

Regardless, any time an idea such as racial/nationality feats, are introduced to the public, some people will find fault with it.

Fault is not the problem. Possible offense (intended or not) is the issue here.

AND MY POINT is: There are BILLIONS of people out there and not everyone will agree with each other.

Then why pigeon hole people as this rule does?

It is up to you as an individual to decide on where you stand on this topic.

I am certainly not holding a gun to anyone's head.

Hell, I have been WAITING for this book for the past two months. So I haven't even seen it yet. When I get it through the Post and read it, then and only then, will I decide how I feel about these feats.

Again, by way of illustrating how you have, indeed, missed the point here: it is not the feats themselves that are the problem...

 

[LoneStranger]

So I missed the point huh? Fine, lemme make a point that will fit with the "problem" here. Anyone who gets offended by the feats is placing too much emphasis on a game. Anyone who calls this racist has lost sight of why we play RPGs in the first place, to get away from the crap we have to put up with in real life. I'll say it again, if you don't like it, change it or dump it. And if you're offended, don't buy the stuff. It's as simple as that.

 

[KDLadage]

I didn't miss the point, however the point I was trying to illustrate is that I did not even give the nationality feats a second glance as far as considering them insulting so if I had needed to justify or explain why i didn't find them offensive, then that in itself would have inferred that they noted to me as derogatary enough in some way that I would have needed to give thought to defending my opinion of them... if you see what I mean. But because they do not and have not ever protrayed themselves to me as something people might find even remotely offensive I have never given them that amount of thought to form such a defence for them.

There is nothing cowardly about that stance just a mere statement of fact. I never saw them as and do not see them as offensive in anyway, hence never ever thought about them in any way necessary of forming a defence of my opinion of them.

OK... but this misses what I was trying to state: the issue here is not "do you find these offensive?" or not; nor is it "should you ahve to defend that possition?" -- the point here is "do you find these inoffensive only because they are in a game?"

If you find the idea offensive, but because it is in a game it is OK (something your first post seemed to suggest) then this is a cowardly thing (something Rich was trying to say). If, on the other hand, you simply do not find them offensive... then you have no need to defend such a view, as this is a perfectly valid point of view.