My Initiative Sink Fix (or Jumping on the Bandwagon)

Court Jester

Mongoose
My apologies if this has alread been discussed, I don't pay a huge ammount of attention to the rules disscussions...

Theplayer that won Initiative nominiates an enemy ship or squadron, the controlling player then resolves the units movement. Players continue alternating choosing enemy ships or squadrons and moving their own ships when nominated.

When a Squadron is nominated to move the controlling player may instead choose to move one single ship in the squadron instead. The chosen ship leaves the squadron.

Encourages the use of smaller escorts in squadrons with larger ships. And stops swarm fleets from protecting a single big ship. Boresight is not nerfed until at least all the escorting ships are dead or have left the squadron.

The only really odd situation I can foresee is 2 heavy boresight fleets (Narn or EA) just using up all their escorst on turn 1 and it not having much of an impact.

Thoughts?
 
Except that you still need more escorts/initiative sinks than your opponent, squadroned or not. So, unfortunately, nothing is changed or fixed.

Since you're moving one ship out of the Squadron, you don't really get around initiative sinks... if anything, you exacerbate it because you need to remove escorts from the Squadron in order to get enough sinks to target your enemy... so in the end, you still need more initiative sinks than your opponent, squadrons or not.

I posted this proposal in the 3rd Edition thread, but it didn't seem to get any criticism or comment (Although that may just be that everyone has decided to ignore my ideas, in which case I shall endeavor to make them more eccentric).

Here's a proposal, a mixture of the "Mechwarrior" system and the FAP movement limitations:

Firstly, you must move ships by their Fleet Priority. The higher their priority, the sooner they move. In order from first to last: Armageddon, War, Battle, Raid, Skirmish, Patrol.

In addition, you and your opponent must move ships to create an equivalent number of turns. Essentially, you must move your ships so that you and your opponent move an equal number of ships. If you have 15 and he has 5, you have to move 3 ships for every one of his.

Shooting occurs as normal, and is not modified by this whatsoever.

This system provides the balance of making it so larger fleets can't initiative sink yours; since he has to not only move his higher priority ships first, but move so you both have an equal number of turns, the external "metagamed" benefit of Initiative sinks is removed. However having a larger fleet is still of benefit; lower priority ships will be slightly harder to boresight so long as your opponent also has higher priority ships. In the context of these ship's size and maneuverability, this makes sense.

Larger ships have an easier time fighting Larger Ships, as it should be: No more hiding behind the four Havens in the back of the map.

Larger fleets have a benefit; they're moving more ships for every one of yours, representing their increased maneuverability. However, this increased maneuverability, in this system, doesn't translate to the metagamed ability to translate that maneuver to larger ships. In essence, bringing the tactical nature back to the initiative system, preserving its nature, while removing initiative sinks as a external, metagamed feature that affects other elements of the game, such as Boresight.

Squadrons complicate this slightly. We've removed, in part, the benefit of movement for Squadrons; however, Squadrons provide a different benefit. Representing the increased coordination, if you Squadron ships, it can affect the initiative order of how movement occurs. However, since you have to move ships based on Fleet Priority, a Squadron has to move per the highest priority ship in the Squadron.

An example:

I have 8 ships, my opponent has 5. I create a Pentacon of 5 ships (One ship of which is my highest priority ship, a Mankhat), reducing the number of "ships" I nominate to move down to 4. My opponent now has to move 2 ships to my Pentacon (Which has to move before any other ship in my fleet because of the Priority rule); then he moves 1, I move 1; he moves 1, I move 1; he moves his last, I move my last.

If I use the Pentacon special rule, He essentially moves 2 ships, then another; I move the Pentacon and another ship, etc. You always have to move your ships in such a way that you and your opponent have an equal number of "turns." The Pentacon's benefit is still worthwhile, and Squadrons provide benefits as well.

My examples likely make this sound far more complex than its actual practice and conduct really is.
 
The big problem with that system is that large ships never get to fire their boresight weapons.

I'm afraid without chaning the "simulaneous movement/shooting" nature of ACtA there is no simple fix. If people actually see this as a big problem then Battletech style alternating activations are probably best with no need to have to move the largest ships first.

Actually I think the best way of solving this is to make it so you get fewer ships as you buy down and therefore have a different penalty. Admittedly this doesn't actually solve the core issue but it does mean that ships are "costed" more appropriately for their battlefield effect.
 
How about using boresight weapons in an over-watch role. ie, they can fire if anything crosses their line of sight during movement at half AD?

Would give those ships a tactical edge in positioning, no matter when they move.
 
Some other alternating activation rules use a system similar to this. Both players roll initiative as normal, the winner then can choose to activate a model/unit of his own first or choose one of his opponent's models/units to have activated. From that point on both players alternate activations as normal, except they only pick from their own units.

In most other alternating activation games all actions are carried out when the units are activated, not all movement then all shooting. So this method could extend to both phases.

It is good because it allows you to force your opponent to move that important ship you want to boresite if you win initiative. It's something that works well in other games I've played, although in ACTA the forces that really want to win initiative have low fleet initiative so it could hurt them more as their opponents will win initiative more often and force them to activate an important boresite ship first.

Another fix for the boresite problem would be to combine moving and shooting into one activation instead of having them separate. This would allow boresite to work without problems as they would always be able to line up on a ship then. Of course this would make fighters and anti-fighter problematic. Would anti-fighter happen at the end of a ship's movement (like normal weapons fire would) or would it happen when fighters move into range? Just some food for thought.
 
Triggy said:
The big problem with that system is that large ships never get to fire their boresight weapons.

I'm afraid without chaning the "simulaneous movement/shooting" nature of ACtA there is no simple fix. If people actually see this as a big problem then Battletech style alternating activations are probably best with no need to have to move the largest ships first.

Actually I think the best way of solving this is to make it so you get fewer ships as you buy down and therefore have a different penalty. Admittedly this doesn't actually solve the core issue but it does mean that ships are "costed" more appropriately for their battlefield effect.

How do you say that? If both sides must move their large ships, large ships will end up fighting large ships. Certainly, they would have greater difficulty targeting smaller ships, especially if the enemy has larger ships on the board. However, I gather and feel that's how it should be anyway. As it stands, smaller ships somehow translate their ability to maneuver by making Larger ships more maneuverable, as the initiative system works now. With the proposed, smaller ships would be maneuverable only in and of themselves, and wouldn't translate that ability to other ships. Ships would have to move based on priority level.

On top of that, having a larger fleet doesn't mean you can out-sink your enemy, with the proposed; you have to move an equal number of "turns" in addition to moving higher priority ships first.
 
Basically if you force the opponent to move his ship first, it can't fire its boresight weapon. If you move second then all your opponent has to do is keep the one moved ship out of arc/range.
 
Triggy said:
Basically if you force the opponent to move his ship first, it can't fire its boresight weapon. If you move second then all your opponent has to do is keep the one moved ship out of arc/range.

Wouldn't that, at once, mean that tactics have been restored, initiative is preserved? Further, if your opponent is keeping those larger vessels out of arc/range, then they're not contributing to the battle, a poor tactical choice that will likely lose him the battle.

That essentially occurs in the initiative system as it stands now; the proposed only encourages players to make more balanced fleets so they aren't severely hampered by it. Sorry to say, but that seems like a rather flimsy counter-argument, as initiative as it stands is supposed to have some value. Unfortunately, initiative sinks have more, in the current system.
 
I played a game other day with 11 B arc Beams and I managed to get a hit every turn with at least 10 so how you people are struggling is beyond me. Even against the ISA i manage it. Take upto 6 patrol level ships for init sinks then target whatever you can a beam does good damage who cares if its a patrol level if it's dead it's one less ship which is good.

Moving and deployment is far more tactical with B arc weapons but it is far from impossible.
 
skavendan said:
I played a game other day with 11 B arc Beams and I managed to get a hit every turn with at least 10 so how you people are struggling is beyond me. Even against the ISA i manage it. Take upto 6 patrol level ships for init sinks then target whatever you can a beam does good damage who cares if its a patrol level if it's dead it's one less ship which is good.

Moving and deployment is far more tactical with B arc weapons but it is far from impossible.

possibly because as you have shown, you are way superior to everyone on the forum :-)
 
lol no not at all.

I just dont see how it's so hard I faced the league and he took about 25 patrol level ships so i just started to blow them away i didn't have much choice. And he wasn't happy to see them explode lol

The issue is not getting a beam lock it's getting beam lock on what you want to fire at. Sometimes you just have to accept a lower priority target it's always idea but you must kill all enemies no?
 
you are correct. their is no reason why apart from perhaps your first ship, you can't line up a boresight. people seem however not to like the fact they may have to destroy those pesky little ships first. and the main boresight issue people have is that they can't target that big bugger at the back straight away.
 
hiffano said:
you are correct. their is no reason why apart from perhaps your first ship, you can't line up a boresight.
Game on saturday, I had 2 Omegas and 3 init sinks. I thought I'd at least get *some* beam shots off. But the centauri cheesemonger had 4 havens, All Stopped right on the back line. Please tell me how I could have got a shot off, while his 6 Demos and 2 Morgrath were closing in for the kill? Even if I All Power To Engines to get in range of the havens I can only go 9", and then I can't even turn to line up the boresight.
 
ok IF you are in range, you should always be able to get a boresight, except perhaps on your first ship...

you know what i meant, why aren't you ranting about random beams anyway ;-)
 
I'd have sat right back and waitting for them all stopped. Omegas are lumbering and you have better range then him. What points Worth was the battle? Personally am not too keen on lumbering ships.

I SAY LET THEM COME!!!
 
What I don't like about the initiative system...

It encourages a style of play that I find tedious and counter intuitive. By having "initiative sinks" it provides a tactical advantage for having a swarm of lower priority ships that don't do much except make the opponent move his ships.

i.e. My swarm of patrol boats moving randomly on one edge of the board forces you to commit your battleship foolishly, allowing me to completely outmaneuver you.

There is no scope for the commander to say..."Look Lt, I know he's moving a Tethys Casino Boat on the other side of the galaxy but I'd really you rather focus on shooting the big ship that's about to big hole in the hydroponics bay!" My argument is not that I find it difficult to play tactically...I don't. I've played and won my fair share of games against good opponents. My argument is that it's simply not a fun way to "out fight" your opponent. This is something that is at least partially recognised by tournaments that impose ship limits.
 
hiffano said:
ok IF you are in range, you should always be able to get a boresight, except perhaps on your first ship...
If you win deployment init, if there is no planet/scenery to hide behind, if he can't get out of arc, if he can't just run out of range, if he's not a scout with high stealth... and then if the beam gets more than 2 hits!! Thats a lot of ifs...
 
Burger said:
hiffano said:
you are correct. their is no reason why apart from perhaps your first ship, you can't line up a boresight.
Game on saturday, I had 2 Omegas and 3 init sinks. I thought I'd at least get *some* beam shots off. But the centauri cheesemonger had 4 havens, All Stopped right on the back line. Please tell me how I could have got a shot off, while his 6 Demos and 2 Morgrath were closing in for the kill? Even if I All Power To Engines to get in range of the havens I can only go 9", and then I can't even turn to line up the boresight.

My point illustrated far better in this real world example!
 
um, it's a tactical game, their are IFS in every situation.

so let me get this straight, you don't like boresight, you don't like initiative sinks, you don't like beam mechanics, you don't like gaim, you don't like priority FAP's you don't like. . . etc...

You are a glutton for punishment playing this game :lol:
 
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