Muster out with Battle Dress?

I never thought it made sense to increase your Vacc Suit skill When you have Battle Dress skill. Increasing your Battle Dress skill should be sufficient. I don't see the need to increase both of them since Battle Dress is really a heavily armoured powered Vacc Suit designed for combat in almost every imaginable environment.
 
So then on a similar note . . .

A character mustering out with a weapon could basically start the campaign with an FGMP-15 . . . per the core rules. (with apologies if this has already been hashed out)

Yeah, I know. A barbarian mustering out with such a weapon is rather ridiculous . . . though one could find a creative explanation.

Zog, fearless leader of the Pom Poo, decides to visit that strange, huge village with the magic lights and metal flyers. On his way there, he stumbles upon one such dead flyer and makes a hundred discoveries!
 
It seems to me that Battle Dress, much like 21st century tanks or aircraft, would be maintenance-intensive. I would let my players muster out with one, but if theyre not in a merc unit or the military they're gonna have one helluva time repairing it. My rule is lowest bidder wins the contract so by default their gear will break eventually. Availability of military parts on the civilian market would be nil. There is of course the black market when and if it would be available according to the UWP. :twisted:

P.S. Breakage could be from either combat or simple wear and tear.
 
Mustering out with Battle Dress is no way on the same level as mustering out with an FGMP-15.

A person in TL 13 Battle Dress is not much harder to kill than a person in TL 12 Improved Combat Armour (There is only a 2 point armour difference.).

However an FGMP-15 does an average of 56 points of damage per shot (Enough damage to kill just about any character with one hit no matter what armour they're wearing.), is capable of burst and autofire, emits an average 140 rads per shot (How does autofire affect this? This is enough radiation to seriously ruin the day of anyone nearby who is not in Combat Armour, Battle Dress, or an HEV Suit.), and can be fired by anyone with a Strength of 9 with no penalty (Except for the radiation burns.).

Not quite the same thing at all. Allowing a character to have Battle Dress is an indulgence, while allowing them to have an FGMP-15 is insanity.

I may be old, but I haven't completely lost my wits. :)
 
Mustering out with battledress??!!? You are joking??!

So Imperial Marine Sgt walks out to depot with millions of credits of kit. He sells it, retires, end of adventure.

From a MTU point of view, its flak jackets, cloth, etc. Even combat armour stricks me as OTT. Tend to be stingy about weapons as well, small arms fine, but no support weapons.

Egil
 
Egil does have a point but I feel you should go with the flavour of whatever suits your game, the combat at my table is mostly small arms but then again I've never run a military campaign.
 
Egil Skallagrimsson said:
Mustering out with battledress??!!? You are joking??!

So Imperial Marine Sgt walks out to depot with millions of credits of kit. He sells it, retires, end of adventure.

From a MTU point of view, its flak jackets, cloth, etc. Even combat armour stricks me as OTT. Tend to be stingy about weapons as well, small arms fine, but no support weapons.

Egil

How does that compare to owning shares of a ship?. Depending on the ship you could sell your shares for a few million creds and retire.

The objective for such people is the same for every rich person in existence, to make their hoard bigger. Even the rich people who just kick back, relax, and enjoy still take pains to at least maintain their level of wealth.

Plus like I posted earlier, those who retire with BD have essentially had 20+ of background checks and continual observation of their habits, mental state, loyalty, etc.. So allowing such worthy people to retire out is not nearly as ridiculous as a Merchant retiring out as the owner of a multi million credit space ship.

Which isn't ridiculous at all, a good Merchant should retire out at least comfortable rich, or they were never a good merchant.

So I look at it as being someone who had an opportunity come along in their life and were smart enough to see it for what it was and jumped on it, and it was legitimate and paid off. Most people jump onto "Scam wagons", as I like to call them, and end up with not much to show for it when they retire.

So someone who retires with BD in my games has 20+ years of intensive background checks, personal history, many mental evaluations, and signs up to be in the "Eternal Reserves" as I like to call it, has to buy and maintain permits, follow rules of behavior and storage and usage.

So they are just someone who played all of their cards right, at the right times in their career, and it paid off. In their case, with BD.
 
Charakan said:
Egil does have a point but I feel you should go with the flavour of whatever suits your game, the combat at my table is mostly small arms but then again I've never run a military campaign.

Give running a Merc game a try some time. The realities of it that come up in play will definitely open up new perspectives.
 
Treebore said:
Give running a Merc game a try some time. The realities of it that come up in play will definitely open up new perspectives.

I may just do that as soon as I can find some decent players, a local gaming store has an open gaming night and I was going to head down and run a one shot with pregens, got a good industrial espionage scenario I wrote that I was going to use. I was going to ask for some tips on a military campaign but don't want to derail this thread so will start a new one.
 
The reason I'd differentiate between Battledress and Vacc suit skill is the same as I'd differentiate between skill at driving or maintaining a tank and skill at driving or maintaining a civilian sedan. Or a military attack chopper vs a civilian light aircraft.

Personally, I'd have thought the skills were a candidate for a cascade skill like Driver or Gun Combat, though. Suit (Vacc) and Suit (Battledress) perhaps? As with other cascade skills, there's no problem in limiting access - you just remane the skill table entries accordingly. In this take, someone who has Vacc Suit skill isn't *totally* useless if they have to operate Battledress - having effective Battledress 0 would mean a -2 to to all checks instead of greater penalties.

Having said that, if you define Battledress skill as primarily being about moving and fighting in the armour, with the hostile environment aspects being secondary and largely automated, I can see Vacc suit skill as being a seperate consideration, which focusses largely ON the hostile environment aspect. And from a pure game balance view, there are reasons to make it an exclusive skill. So if you want to leave it as written, that's also justified.

In the end, there are a bunch of good ways to game it - go with your gut.
 
The retired military characters in my game are really shifted to the inactive reserves.

IMTU I've tripled lifespans (No anagathics needed), so there are large numbers of the inactive reserve out there. Most of the TL 11+ factories in the Imperium are almost entirely robotic giving the Imperium an excess of military equipment (Most designs have hardly changed in the last century.), so characters will have older but still servicable gear. I don't have a problem with this since Imperium restricts mustering out gear to TL 13 or less, and heavy weapons are not given out unless the inactive reserves are reactivated. IMTU computer programs keep track of the reserves, and if a situation arises the Imperial authorities can contact whatever reserve troops are in the area. There are Imperial Armouries all over the place that Governors etc. can access in case of emergency, but since they aren't in every system out there, the inactive reserves have some equipment available to them. I have several packages that are given to the characters when they muster out (If they want the good stuff this the only way to get it.), The characters are required to maintain the equipment they are given, and are not allowed to sell the items. You can turn down the equipment (And not be in the reserves.), but you won't have access to any automatic weapons or military grade armour.
 
While any referee can do as they choose, it seems completely unrealistic to allow a soldier to leave service with a mustering out benefit of battledress.

I'm going to compare this to modern militaries. I can't see myself getting a benefit of a simple M16A2 rifle when I left service, let alone a tanker leaving with an M1 tank (equivalent of battle dress in some ways). "Thank you for your service John, you can keep the tank. Have fun!" :shock:

You could stretch the term of "mustering out" to include stuff that a person snuck off with or collected while in a career. This seems more plausible, but still limited to minor items. From my US Army days, I have a couple sleeping bags, couple backpacks, a chemical suit, some alice gear, and a kevlar helmet. From my law enforcement career I have several handguns, a military grade shotgun (all purchased cheap when decommissioned, not stolen!), an old gas mask, and an extra kevlar vest. BUT, I have nothing expensive like an Army M60 machinegun or a police patrol car.

Doesn't seem realistic to allow something like battledress to get away. Yes you could make up a way for a player to get his hands on one, but I would prefer such acquiring to be roleplayed during play, not rollplayed during character generation.
 
IMHO, BattleDress has always been rediculusly overpriced. For something thats been around for a couple hundred years, and in general production its costs are way out of bounds.

There is no price for used but servicable decommissioned units. I really don't see Imperial Mercenary Licensed units fielding the very same BattleDress that is the current frontline issue to the Imperial Marines.

CSC has a nice spread of BD types, and if its in use, fills an number of needs.

That being said, in my TU, BattleDress isn't nearly that expensive, more widely fielded by the Impreium, and can be found is Huscarl units amoung other places. It is also not difficult to service or maintain.

That being said,it isn't commonly given out as a retirement item. I have been tinkering an idea of a Marine version of the Naval Reserve option for ship operators.

My Tu also has larger units based off of Shirow's Landmates.

Bring on the Power Armour Book, Expedite Please
 
I think the general idea with mustering out benefits are that they are personal effects the character has picked up over the years, not souvenirs lifted from the employer.

As to the cost of battledress... seems fair to me. While I previously posted regarding the general cost effectiveness of combat armour troops, there will be tactical situations where it is going to be the best tool for the job.
 
rinku said:
I think the general idea with mustering out benefits are that they are personal effects the character has picked up over the years, not souvenirs lifted from the employer.
This...

To reflect this, I like to have the players make the muster out roll(s) for a term at the end of each term. Gives us an idea of when they actually acquired an item, and how they might have come about it.

In the real world, depending on one's career and hobbies, it's not unusual to pick up some rather unique items - this goes for military personnel as well. Most militaries/governments have some sort of surplus equiment sales program, and active duty personnel are often the ones who hear about them and attend them early. I've seen some pretty military specific stuff offered up at those sales. While I personally didn't pick up any weapons or armor during my time in the service, I did pick up quite a bit of specialty electronic test equipment, including a couple pieces that were only made for the US military. Furthermore, parts of equipment also get sold at those sales - parts that have little to no use or value by themselves, but theoretically a knowledgable person with enough diligence and bit of luck could acquire enough of these parts to assemble their own.

While military and government aren't so creative with their retirement benefits, companies and corporations can be. An arcade I worked at gave a departing employee a video game cabinet, a car wash manufacturer gave a retiring employee his own self serve wash pump stand to put in his garage, and the last company I worked for gave all the departing employees their computers when they closed their doors. I know none of those are similar to BD, my point is that people acquire not so normal stuff all the time.

That's legitimate acquisitions - sometimes acquistions aren't so legitimate. One of the overseas bases I was stationed was the cause of a fleet wide order that modified how certain type of surplus equipment was sold. It used to be that bases were able to determine their own surplus needs and hold local sales - however, a couple of enterprising calibration techs would "surplus" nearly brand new electronics test equipment, then have their friends buy it for them at the base surplus sale. When they got caught, the fleet command issued an order that any equipment over a certain value to be surplused had to either be shipped to fleet headquarters in Hawaii, or had to have special authorization from headquarters to be sold locally. Put an end to that little racket.

Then there is simply outright theft. While simply taking a piece of battle dress might be noticed, stealing pieces of them under the guise of maintenance is pretty hard to notice. At one of my bases, my supply clerk, one of my techs and I caught someone above us in our chain of command stealing supplies to outfit the sailboat he was building. No one above him questioned the base ordering things like anchors, compasses. cleats and spools of rope/cable, because it was a navy base, and it did have a small boat unit. It was those of us working the radio transmitter department that started receiving these supplies to question these "unordered parts" - and of course, the person we had to report these mis-shipped parts to was the one doing the stealing. At first it was just "Hey, we got the boat unit's order again" and he'd say "Ok, I'll drop it off to them", but finally after a couple of months we got suspicious and started to compile some real data to catch him. A less diligent crew might not have noticed, nor challenged a boss like that. Or if it had been at the tugboat unit where that stuff wasn't unusual.

So I see no issues with the occassional Marine being able to acquire BD during their term of service. If it came up during the character generation process, as long as the player could come up with a decent storyline as to how they got it and they were aware and acknowledged that I would use it against them in ways similar to those that have been mentioned already, why not? After all, Traveller PCs often end up in ships that armed with far more dangerous weapons - a triple laser turret on a scout ship is just as dangerous - if not more so - than a PC in BD.
 
DFW said:
Sturn said:
I'm going to compare this to modern militaries. I can't see myself getting a benefit of a simple M16A2 rifle when I left service,

Like in Switzerland? ;)

I had understood that the swiss were all still serving reservist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland) and that they kept their personal equipment only until the end of that service
 
dreamingbadger said:
I had understood that the swiss were all still serving reservist and that they kept their personal equipment only until the end of that service
Indeed, the weapons remain property of the armed forces and have to
be returned to the armed forces at the end of the service.
 
Sturn said:
I'm going to compare this to modern militaries. I can't see myself getting a benefit of a simple M16A2 rifle when I left service,
No, but no reason you couldn't have picked up a surplus one along the way, and/or the needed parts/pieces of one to convert a civilian model to one. It may not be strictly legal in most countries/states/municipalities, but it can happen.

Remember that even though we're talking about PCs who are average, every day joes compared to other RPGs who treat PCs as special above average superheroes, Traveller PCs are special in that they're about to live an adventure! In most campaigns, they are also just a handful of people among millions, billions, trillions or more. If only one in a trillion Imperial Marines gets out of the service and get's to keep his battledress, why can't it be a PC Marine?*

----
*Even if the entire party is Marines, surely the 3I has more than a few trillion marines on active duty spread across it's 11,000 worlds. Just because you let the PCs do it, doesn't mean that every Marine everywhere gets to do it.
 
what everybody else does in their own traveller universe is up to them... in mine the marine spec says they get Armour not Battle Dress... seriously if they really wanted a suit badly enough it might be the focus of an adventure but I wouldn't give out as part of the muster out in mine...
 
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