MRQ Western
- Thread starter The King
- Start date
This would be a very good idea. We have been playing a lot of Call of Cthulhu (a related system) based wild west lately and it works quite well. The system is a CoC setting specific variant from the magazine Worlds of Cthulhu though I am increasingly dissatisfied with their implementation.
For a pure western setting or even one with little fantasy the RQ would be very good, certainly better than the rabid and cancerous dog [1] that was Deadlands or indeed any version I have seen [2]. I love the GURPS books, as reference material they are unbeatable but I have not run it since the early days of third edition [3]
Notes
1. Not a random insult but carefully chosen words: it grew wildly hence cancerous and was a terrible and unfriendly system, not improved by a second edition hence rabid. Worst of all it mad metaplots and an unkillable NPC that the designers just loved.
2. D20 is fine if you want D20. If you don’t though the choice is more limited.
3. Good grief, that is nearly 20 years. I feel old.
For a pure western setting or even one with little fantasy the RQ would be very good, certainly better than the rabid and cancerous dog [1] that was Deadlands or indeed any version I have seen [2]. I love the GURPS books, as reference material they are unbeatable but I have not run it since the early days of third edition [3]
Notes
1. Not a random insult but carefully chosen words: it grew wildly hence cancerous and was a terrible and unfriendly system, not improved by a second edition hence rabid. Worst of all it mad metaplots and an unkillable NPC that the designers just loved.
2. D20 is fine if you want D20. If you don’t though the choice is more limited.
3. Good grief, that is nearly 20 years. I feel old.
What would we need to do this properly?
Races. Well you are all human. I am unsure that any racial modifiers would be appropriate though the harsher lives of the native American s might qualify them for a CON bonus – all the ones with a low CON did not make it through childhood. It might be better to allow a reroll of a low CON, possibly of some other physical stats?
Backgrounds. Here is the fun part. We can divide the natives into broad groups: Plains Indian, Woodland Indian and so on. We might need to qualify this slightly by tribe to allow for differences between them, a less homogeneous group is hard to imagine but this is relatively simple, it just needs some research. The rest are simpler. Backgrounds might be rural poor, urban poor and so on if we even wan to split it up that far.
Careers. The (former) Europeans and settlers are fairly straightforward and the Indians really only need some research.
Equipment. Mostly quite straightforward though I would have trouble finding the prices. Some weapons can be taken from RQ others need to be extrapolated. No major difficulties. Steamboats as well (useful, fun and I like them).
New Rules. Shooting and quick draw obviously enough. More on horses would not be inappropriate. Healing is worth a look too.
Magic. Well there isn’t any. Except some people might want some in a more or less fantasy setting. Spirit magic is probably the best basis for Indian magic/religion but this would have to be handled tactfully as it is still a living religion. For the whites you have lingering traditional hedge magic and ritual magic. As having magic makes it a fictional setting you might even have some paganism or wicca despite its non-existence in reality until its creation very late in the period and that on a very limited scale.
Bestiary. Real creatures and some semi mythical and cryptozoological ones such as the Thunderbird but not the silly ones such as the horned rabbit. Some recently extinct ones as well.
Background. A rough history. The ACW is rather important.
Have I missed anything?
With Mongoose already having their Wild West D20 OGL book a lot of the hard work – background, prices and timeline – is already done. You just need the system specific bits.
Races. Well you are all human. I am unsure that any racial modifiers would be appropriate though the harsher lives of the native American s might qualify them for a CON bonus – all the ones with a low CON did not make it through childhood. It might be better to allow a reroll of a low CON, possibly of some other physical stats?
Backgrounds. Here is the fun part. We can divide the natives into broad groups: Plains Indian, Woodland Indian and so on. We might need to qualify this slightly by tribe to allow for differences between them, a less homogeneous group is hard to imagine but this is relatively simple, it just needs some research. The rest are simpler. Backgrounds might be rural poor, urban poor and so on if we even wan to split it up that far.
Careers. The (former) Europeans and settlers are fairly straightforward and the Indians really only need some research.
Equipment. Mostly quite straightforward though I would have trouble finding the prices. Some weapons can be taken from RQ others need to be extrapolated. No major difficulties. Steamboats as well (useful, fun and I like them).
New Rules. Shooting and quick draw obviously enough. More on horses would not be inappropriate. Healing is worth a look too.
Magic. Well there isn’t any. Except some people might want some in a more or less fantasy setting. Spirit magic is probably the best basis for Indian magic/religion but this would have to be handled tactfully as it is still a living religion. For the whites you have lingering traditional hedge magic and ritual magic. As having magic makes it a fictional setting you might even have some paganism or wicca despite its non-existence in reality until its creation very late in the period and that on a very limited scale.
Bestiary. Real creatures and some semi mythical and cryptozoological ones such as the Thunderbird but not the silly ones such as the horned rabbit. Some recently extinct ones as well.
Background. A rough history. The ACW is rather important.
Have I missed anything?
With Mongoose already having their Wild West D20 OGL book a lot of the hard work – background, prices and timeline – is already done. You just need the system specific bits.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
May be some scenarios.klingsor said:
I would also include something about cold blood (like Warhammer) to be able to fight under fire or just to simulate these eye-to-eye duels a la Sergio Leone (or may be a POW/POW struggle should make it).
There is also an old RPG dedicated to the wild west with much material on corral management, but I can't remember the name for now.
Perhaps I would use the various civilization instead of races for the cultural skills (i.e. Native Americans, Mexicans, etc.).
Nice idea. Does anyone else remember the Coolness Under Fire stat that Twilight 2000 had?
Cold blood – passes me by, I have the Warhammer RPG first edition but I have not looked at in many years. It will be in the attic, though at the moment it looks as if someone turned a library upside down and shook it out into it though I have at least found my cache of wild west books though cannot reach them yet. Some very nice Salamander books and several on Indians, in fact a surprising number on Indians if I add in the others I can lay my hands, on including a useful looking one on the plains warrior societies I picked up for peanuts last year. I hope to get a run at it on Saturday so maybe I will get them unearthed then.
Scenarios. I am never sure about these. I like scenario ideas and seeds but am not so keen on fully written out scenarios though they are very useful for FNGs and to give you some idea on how to balance the system.
Races. Agreed, same species but very different cultures.
Cold blood – passes me by, I have the Warhammer RPG first edition but I have not looked at in many years. It will be in the attic, though at the moment it looks as if someone turned a library upside down and shook it out into it though I have at least found my cache of wild west books though cannot reach them yet. Some very nice Salamander books and several on Indians, in fact a surprising number on Indians if I add in the others I can lay my hands, on including a useful looking one on the plains warrior societies I picked up for peanuts last year. I hope to get a run at it on Saturday so maybe I will get them unearthed then.
Scenarios. I am never sure about these. I like scenario ideas and seeds but am not so keen on fully written out scenarios though they are very useful for FNGs and to give you some idea on how to balance the system.
Races. Agreed, same species but very different cultures.
There has been talk of a western setting over at the basicroleplaying.com forums and I've been seriously considering a western game using brp or MRQ (originally berp but I think the MRQ wound/damage system may fit better what I'm looking for).
I'm leaning for an Intimidation skill (POW+CHA) for duels. Perhaps an opposed Intimidation roll gives an edge during the classic duel. It can be used plenty at other times as well.
Coolness under fire is I think the most overlooked aspect of fire combat in games, though I think that is seperate than the intimidate skill that would be used in duels. More of the ability to think clearly and act rationally under fire. I would probably use a skill as well, and have it affect both being able to 'see' the situation clearly as well as act under fire (be able to pop up from behind cover, take careful aim with your weapon, and sqeeze off a clean shot while bullets are whizzing around your head and your survival instinct is screaming "get the f**k down you idiot!").
I'm leaning for an Intimidation skill (POW+CHA) for duels. Perhaps an opposed Intimidation roll gives an edge during the classic duel. It can be used plenty at other times as well.
Coolness under fire is I think the most overlooked aspect of fire combat in games, though I think that is seperate than the intimidate skill that would be used in duels. More of the ability to think clearly and act rationally under fire. I would probably use a skill as well, and have it affect both being able to 'see' the situation clearly as well as act under fire (be able to pop up from behind cover, take careful aim with your weapon, and sqeeze off a clean shot while bullets are whizzing around your head and your survival instinct is screaming "get the f**k down you idiot!").
Utgardloki
Mongoose
If I were to run a "Western" game it would probably be as part of a general Victorian-era campaign in which one adventure or part of an adventure takes place in the Western United States.
But if you have rules for guns and stuff, it should work anywhere in the world.
I would probably not have racial modifiers, although in one D&D campaign I ran, I offered optional "ethnic" modifiers to represent the emphasis different cultures gave.
These modifiers were optional, so if you wanted a Dora-Tachuk with an INT of 18 (for example, the Dora-Tachuks having +2 STR and -2 INT), you could forgo the modifier. These modifiers also could not raise your score above your normal racial maximum, so again taking the Dora-Tachuk, you could not put your 18 into STR and then add +2.
But I probably would not do this for a Western setting. One could assign stereotypes, but that could insult people who complain about Germans having a -2 to Charisma in exchange for their +2 in Intelligence. (This is assuming that different modifiers are used for most of the different ethnic types you'll find in the Wild West.)
Skills and professions should be sufficient to distinguish among different characters.
I actually have not thought much about rules for guns yet. For my proposed conversion of Iron Kingdoms my thought was to change the damage to match values on the Damage Bonus table, e.g., instead of doing 4D4 damage (which one of the Iron Kingdoms guns do), it would do 2D8. In general having fewer large dice is probably better from a GM standpoint than having more small dice (e.g. 1D12 vs 2D6).
But if you have rules for guns and stuff, it should work anywhere in the world.
I would probably not have racial modifiers, although in one D&D campaign I ran, I offered optional "ethnic" modifiers to represent the emphasis different cultures gave.
These modifiers were optional, so if you wanted a Dora-Tachuk with an INT of 18 (for example, the Dora-Tachuks having +2 STR and -2 INT), you could forgo the modifier. These modifiers also could not raise your score above your normal racial maximum, so again taking the Dora-Tachuk, you could not put your 18 into STR and then add +2.
But I probably would not do this for a Western setting. One could assign stereotypes, but that could insult people who complain about Germans having a -2 to Charisma in exchange for their +2 in Intelligence. (This is assuming that different modifiers are used for most of the different ethnic types you'll find in the Wild West.)
Skills and professions should be sufficient to distinguish among different characters.
I actually have not thought much about rules for guns yet. For my proposed conversion of Iron Kingdoms my thought was to change the damage to match values on the Damage Bonus table, e.g., instead of doing 4D4 damage (which one of the Iron Kingdoms guns do), it would do 2D8. In general having fewer large dice is probably better from a GM standpoint than having more small dice (e.g. 1D12 vs 2D6).
Jackalopes? No way, never, not under any circumstances, not if you put a gun to my head – but thanks, I could not remember what the stupid things were called. Silly, useless, pointless and a complete waste of space. Similarly with all of the silly, made up creatures such as the furry trout. However a resounding yes to the Shunka Warak’in and other such beasts on the blurry edge of reality. Now I am at home and have access to my cryptozoology books I can check the names.
Races. The differences between the different varieties are simply not different enough to apply any modifiers – or maybe they are? The only time I can think this would be gross enough to matter would be at the real extremes such as the Congo pygmies and there a simple rule such as no strength above 15 might suffice. If you do allow modifiers for race you can slip into racial stereotypes so easily and that is deadly ground indeed.
Culture might be a different matter, but even that I am really coming to doubt, again any differences are so small as to be insignificant.
Races. The differences between the different varieties are simply not different enough to apply any modifiers – or maybe they are? The only time I can think this would be gross enough to matter would be at the real extremes such as the Congo pygmies and there a simple rule such as no strength above 15 might suffice. If you do allow modifiers for race you can slip into racial stereotypes so easily and that is deadly ground indeed.
Culture might be a different matter, but even that I am really coming to doubt, again any differences are so small as to be insignificant.
I was playing around with this and some of the professions will probably have to limited by race. Not nice but the past is a different country. We could add in gender limitations as well, for example female doctors would be incredibly rare if they existed at all, the earliest British female doctor I know of served in the Crimea - spending her entire adult life disguised as a man. Fantasy is one thing but once you start looking at history some things tend to hit you by surprise even when you really should know better.
A few samples:
Cultures (not the best description but it is what RQ uses).
Plains Indian
Woodland Indian
South Western Indian
Slave or Former Slave
Easterner or European
Westerner
Occupations
Cowboy - Any white
Doctor - Any white
Tradesman - Any non-Indian
Soldier - Any non-Indian
Officer - Any white
Warrior
Shaman
Berdache
Shootist
A few samples:
Cultures (not the best description but it is what RQ uses).
Plains Indian
Woodland Indian
South Western Indian
Slave or Former Slave
Easterner or European
Westerner
Occupations
Cowboy - Any white
Doctor - Any white
Tradesman - Any non-Indian
Soldier - Any non-Indian
Officer - Any white
Warrior
Shaman
Berdache
Shootist
A couple of other professions I would suggest.
Rancher, but this could fall under Cowboy somewhat.
Farmer, they did have some depending on where in the west you were
Gunfighter, but I believe that is what your shootist is.
Gambler, they were prevailant in the west.
Saloon Bartender, maybe
Saloon Dancing Girl, could also be a lady of the evening, though that could be another profession.
I am sure there are many I am not thinking of right now.
Rancher, but this could fall under Cowboy somewhat.
Farmer, they did have some depending on where in the west you were
Gunfighter, but I believe that is what your shootist is.
Gambler, they were prevailant in the west.
Saloon Bartender, maybe
Saloon Dancing Girl, could also be a lady of the evening, though that could be another profession.
I am sure there are many I am not thinking of right now.
Utgardloki
Mongoose
I'm not sure I would want to put restrictions on profession based on race or sex. Sure, historically there were not many black female marshals, and perhaps I'd put some restrictions on what job a PC could have, but if a PC wants to be the only one and can come up with a decent rationale for it, why not be flexible?
After all, history was a lot more complicated than those black & white westerns portrayed it to be. Indian tribes may have adopted white kids or black kids, or Indians may have been adopted by white (or black) families. Slaves escaped throughout the Antebellum and U.S. Civil War periods and some of them managed to at least pick up skills that ordinarily were reserved to white males.
Of course, part of the equation is whether the GM wants a historically accurate game, or more of a fantasy game. If the game is going to have fantasy elements, then I don't see a reason why it also can not have characters who managed to buck the prevailing stereotypes.
For example, suppose a PC wants to be a black female sherrif. Of course, there would be no way in tarnation that she could get deputized. So she went west, learned to shoot, found some gold, and the gold-miners who formed the nucleus of the boom town were okay with having her as their sherrif, especially since she could shoot an ant crawling up your pants leg from 50 feet away, and not hurt your leg, unless she wanted to.
(Think "No Name City" from Paint Your Wagon? I don't think they would care who was sherrif as long as it was someone who did a good job at keeping thugs and claim-jumpers out without cramping the drinking and gambling. When the farmers come in later, they may be amazed or even horrified, but what are they going to do about it? Maybe eventually somebody comes by and does something about it, which is why the PC left that town and joined this adventuring party.)
I might actually use a character like this someday, especially if I ever run a Deadlands campaign. My point is that just because there is no character like that in the history documents, that does not mean that a PC can not be a character like this. Just don't expect the kind of official position that a character on a purely fantasy would could have.
After all, history was a lot more complicated than those black & white westerns portrayed it to be. Indian tribes may have adopted white kids or black kids, or Indians may have been adopted by white (or black) families. Slaves escaped throughout the Antebellum and U.S. Civil War periods and some of them managed to at least pick up skills that ordinarily were reserved to white males.
Of course, part of the equation is whether the GM wants a historically accurate game, or more of a fantasy game. If the game is going to have fantasy elements, then I don't see a reason why it also can not have characters who managed to buck the prevailing stereotypes.
For example, suppose a PC wants to be a black female sherrif. Of course, there would be no way in tarnation that she could get deputized. So she went west, learned to shoot, found some gold, and the gold-miners who formed the nucleus of the boom town were okay with having her as their sherrif, especially since she could shoot an ant crawling up your pants leg from 50 feet away, and not hurt your leg, unless she wanted to.
(Think "No Name City" from Paint Your Wagon? I don't think they would care who was sherrif as long as it was someone who did a good job at keeping thugs and claim-jumpers out without cramping the drinking and gambling. When the farmers come in later, they may be amazed or even horrified, but what are they going to do about it? Maybe eventually somebody comes by and does something about it, which is why the PC left that town and joined this adventuring party.)
I might actually use a character like this someday, especially if I ever run a Deadlands campaign. My point is that just because there is no character like that in the history documents, that does not mean that a PC can not be a character like this. Just don't expect the kind of official position that a character on a purely fantasy would could have.
klingsor said:
Couple of points.
First if you are going to add ethnic groups in a wild west, Hispanic should be included .
As for Cowboys, despite what you see in Westerns about 25% of all Cowboys where Afro American according to some sources and many where Hispanic and even some Indians .
There where also a small number of Indian soldiers , like the Apache Scouts. And there where a few Afro American officers, just not many.
And for Indian Culture. You have the so called 6 Civilized tribes in what is now Oklahoma whose culture in many ways was very similar to frontier white culture , The agricultural tribes of the Southwest like the Hopi and Pueblo and the hunter gathers.
If you include Canada then you should also include the Metis as a cultural group.
I would not restrict the present or the future of the PCS but the past I would limit. Once the PCs start play then their destiny is what their players and their GM make it but their past must be realistic or we might as well have orcs and elves. It is easier to move from fantasy to reality by disregarding rules so put the limits in – and then say when to ignore them.
I quite agree that the situation is more complicated than we might expect (it always is) and I think would require a section on exceptions – basically you can ignore any limitation if you have a good story that makes a good character but not just to allow you to create an uber character. I have no problem with the wrong races ending up in the wrong jobs, there are a surprising number of them such as the runaway slaves who became Seminole Indians but these are always exceptions rather than the rule.
Don't worry. The examples I gave were just that. Having the wild west without Hispanics is just plum loco. We also have Jewish cowboys and Spanish crypto Jews whose ancestors were hiding from the inquisition. (nice plot seed there, a weird group of secretive Spanish who just turn out to be Jews).
Indian scouts I would not lump in with the regular troops, they are much more interesting than that.
I think were quite serious efforts to civilise Indians that may have involved taking children away from their parents.
I ended up watching 'The Last of the Mohicans' again last night. The early frontier is another good setting.
I quite agree that the situation is more complicated than we might expect (it always is) and I think would require a section on exceptions – basically you can ignore any limitation if you have a good story that makes a good character but not just to allow you to create an uber character. I have no problem with the wrong races ending up in the wrong jobs, there are a surprising number of them such as the runaway slaves who became Seminole Indians but these are always exceptions rather than the rule.
Don't worry. The examples I gave were just that. Having the wild west without Hispanics is just plum loco. We also have Jewish cowboys and Spanish crypto Jews whose ancestors were hiding from the inquisition. (nice plot seed there, a weird group of secretive Spanish who just turn out to be Jews).
Indian scouts I would not lump in with the regular troops, they are much more interesting than that.
I think were quite serious efforts to civilise Indians that may have involved taking children away from their parents.
I ended up watching 'The Last of the Mohicans' again last night. The early frontier is another good setting.
Well the so called 5 civilized tribes(Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw, Choctaw and Seminole) where not all that different from Frontier whites at the time of the old west being for the most part small farmers. but having their own Doctors , Newspapers and tradesmen. Sequoyah the inventor of the Cherokee alphabet btw was a blacksmith or silversmith in 1810 so that should show you some thing of their relative technology level. And when order west by Pres Andrew Jackson ,instead of going on the Warpath , they sued and fought with lawyers.
Cleombrotus
Mongoose
If anyone can track down the old rolemaster supplement "Outlaw" it was pretty cool. The in-house campaign setting was, in fact, Deadwood. Had a really cool wild west timeline (and a very in-depth Deadwood timeline), railroad maps, native american tribes, atmosphere sections for different styles of movie. I really loved it...
Cleombrotus
Mongoose
And as a sourcebook, The BFI Companion to The Western is a really good purchase. One section on the history, One section on the actors, and One section on the movies, all alphabetised. Great toilet reading as well...I assume there's a similar book by the AFI...
You might want to have a look at:
Many Systems One Family.
- BRP Wild West Discussion http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/279-brp-western.html
Pulp/Western Equipment http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/b...p-western-gear-files.html?highlight=wild+west
Wild West Price List http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=21&act=down
Many Systems One Family.
gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
klingsor said:
Can't agree with that at all...Deadlands was a great system that worked well and was very atmospheric.
As for cancerous, that's rubbish. It may have grown quickly, but cancerous implies it destroyed an existing healthy system, of which there were none at that time. DL reinvented the genre, and did it very well.
Unkillable NPCs loved by the game designer? Can't think of any other game that has those :roll:
Similar threads
