Most unbalanced fleet

[Locutus9956]

Ok so theres been much debate over time but I'm wondering what peoples general oppinions are now of the armageddon lists. I think its fair to say that whilst theyre pretty good overall the fleets are still far from perfectly balanced. But which one do you find the biggest problem?

Ive not included Shadows, Leauge or Raiders as really if you think any of those fleets are broken, erm, learn to play better

As an aside I dont actually think ANY of the fleets are Broken as such (theres a few SHIPS that are but in general things are good)

 

[Burger]

I think a few ships are broken, but no fleets overall. A fleet is only broken when it abuses the broken ships.

 

[JayRaider]

I voted Centauri too! :shock:

The poll says unbalanced, not broke. I don't think there broken, but they are as tough as it gets when playing an experienced Centauri Admiral!

 

[Alexb83]

There are certain fleets that are very difficult to play, especially against certain others at certain levels. I don't know what you mean by broken in this sense - if that's what it is, then probably all of the above are broken in some way.

Centauri have too many beams, at too good ranges in too good arcs, compared to almost anyone else. If anyone deserved this from the series, it's the Minbari, not the fanheads.

Vorlons have very little firepower, and ships that despite certain peoples' opinions are actually really easy to kill, simply by virtue of how they take damage, their hull, and their crappy range dictating that they must take the offensive in every game. They live and die on what crits they can cause to the enemy (which, given the lack of hits they generally get) isn't many. This isn't a good way to have a fleet arranged.

Narn - Whamwhamwham says it all.

Minbari - Some really dire ship variants mean that an already limited ship selection is even more limited in reality. Too many 'suicide' ships. Too few beams by far.

 

[Johnny D]

I agree with Burger there aren't any fleets that I'd consider broken in the sense of being too good compared to other fleets. I'm happy playing with or against any fleet balance wise.
Admittedly Minbari due to stealth might be very annoying to play against, but I wouldn't say that fleet is broken.
Centauri are probably the closest as their beams are good, but they are still quite beatable and I wouldn't consider the fleet broken just in need of a tweaking on a few ships as 2E is planning to do.
If any fleet is broken ie biggest disparity with most fleets, I'd say that the Brakiri and Drazi aren't quite as good as other races, but as I've won with both of them I wouldn't put it as a huge issue and again something a few small ammendments in 2E could fix.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Narn Bay Squad is the cheesiest thing going. You think 4AD of beams at raid is bad, 4AD of beams at skirmish is sick. Boresighted they may be, but it's more firepower than anyone else at that level. Totally unfair.

 

[Da Boss]

I am not sure that the question should actually be - which fleet can be made into the most unbalanced - there are obviously certain combinations that should not be played in friendly games and see too much use in tournaments?

Centauri and Narn can make cheesy fleets but not all are...................its a question of how much the person using them wants to win and how they do it................

If people can't ressit the temptations to field "broken" fleets, should that option be removed? Perhaps through removal of certain ships like in 2nd Ed (is anyone sad to see the Prefect go?), a option to make ships rarer or some other limitation of ships that can be chosen.

The balance also shifts when new ships appear, as has been discussed about the latest Minbari Cruiser - which has not been revised - bizarely given that it would not be difficult!

I think lastly its a question, as has been stated before of giving people lots of actual choices at all levels, so that it does not come down to "must have ships" and from what I have seen of 2nd Ed Centauri - this is def happening for them! However it is a concern for those fleets with less options - League and First Ones.............

have fun

 

[CZuschlag]

Although the board does not support it, you'd get a lot more fleet balance insight from the following question:

Based on your personal experiences, rank these fleets, in order of balance, from 1 (most overpowered) to n (most underpowered).

I'd not only be interested in the average ranking -- I might be even more intrigued by the standard deviation.

My List:

Centauri : 1
Dilgar: 4
Minbari: 3
Vorlon: 6
Narn: 2
EA: 5
ISA: 7.

Much of this is based on experiences with the Prefect, Tertius, Sulust, Ka'Tan, Tinashi, Targrath, Hermes, and Saggitarius, respectively.

 

[Hash]

Judging by my recent win/loss ratio I'd say whatever race my opponent was playing at the time was most broken

In all honesty though - the really cheesy ones (Shadow Hunter from tourney list, Sagittarius) have been nerfed leaving some Centauri cheddar ships...that still aren't as broken as all that - a turn of the dice can take them apart much like any other ship.

I think the only really "broken" thing, which isn't really broken and more like how the game is intended to work, is that many small ships usually beat one big ship. Now, from a simple-minded gamer point of view, I'd rather it a bit more even on that front...(i.e. equivalent, not better, not worse.)

To pick a fleet specifically, because of that reason, is too difficult...I'd say the most broken fleet really depends on what PL you are playing at and how many FAP you use...a 1 pt Armageddon battle seems to be fair enough for most IMO.

 

[Celisasu]

The problem as mentioned is less broken fleets and more due to broken ships. In this the Centauri effectively become the most broken fleet due to having broken ships at Patrol, Raid, and Battle while still having good but not broken ships at War(Octurian) and Skirmish(Maximus) levels meaning they can abuse the breakdown of points better than any other fleet. Narn can only abuse Skirmish ships(which does make them dangerous in a standard 5 point Raid) but collapse at any priority other than Raid(too few ships to use those boresites well at Skirmish, forced to use crap ships at levels higher than Raid to maximise the Bat Squad). The Bin'Tak while being an excellent War ship collapses due to lack of Battle and Raid level support. Minbari now officially have the most broken ship in the new Troligan(or has it been retconnned since I last heard complaints about it? I haven't really been paying attention since Minbari aren't liked here meaning I'm not dealing with it anyways). Combined with the real hit or miss nature of Stealth, they're dealing more with a broken mechanic overall that can swing games horribly due to bad rolls in the first turn or two on either side. I hear the White Star Carrier is very nasty, being the only worthwhile carrier(well the Drakh Carrier is viable at Skirmish) although I've never faced one myself. The new ISA stuff might change this, can't say though. Pre-nerf the Sag was the single most broken ship in the game. Post nerf it's probably still too strong but not as horribly before. A good initial barrage can win you the game with it. A bad initial barrage can lose you the game. Vorlons aren't broken. Can't comment on the Dilgar.

 

[katadder]

if the centauri are broken just from being the beam team then the narn have to be as they have more beam dice than any other race in the game.
who else can get 40AD of DD beams into a 5pt raid

 

[tneva82]

if the centauri are broken just from being the beam team then the narn have to be as they have more beam dice than any other race in the game.
who else can get 40AD of DD beams into a 5pt raid

Narns can't however fire ALL of those beams during turn and targets are often limited so that ideal target isn't possible target.

Centauri's don't have such problems.

 

[Sulfurdown]

if the centauri are broken just from being the beam team then the narn have to be as they have more beam dice than any other race in the game.
who else can get 40AD of DD beams into a 5pt raid

Narns can't however fire ALL of those beams during turn and targets are often limited so that ideal target isn't possible target.

Centauri's don't have such problems.

They just have half the dice at most (Darkners or Sulust). But it seems that any fleet of the same ship is a little silly.
EDIT: Unless you're talking about things like a Skirmish-3 fleet that has Vorchans or Light Raiders, blah-blah. Then it's getting down to being your only choices.

 

[tneva82]

They just have half the dice at most (Darkners or Sulust). But it seems that any fleet of the same ship is a little silly.
EDIT: Unless you're talking about things like a Skirmish-3 fleet that has Vorchans or Light Raiders, blah-blah. Then it's getting down to being your only choices.

I'm talking about boresight. Narn batsquad can't possibly get ALL of their ships boresighted and by not moving important ship(s) until last opponent can control which ship(s) narns will be able to shoot.

Centauri's have full forward arcs which means much less targeting problems. And ability to CAF the target to boost.

 

[katadder]

it is possible to boresight every beam, not always at targets you want sure. but if its 5 sullusts to try match ur firepower and you win init then you can have 6 boresighted on whichever you want.

 

[Triggy]

it is possible to boresight every beam, not always at targets you want sure. but if its 5 sullusts to try match ur firepower and you win init then you can have 6 boresighted on whichever you want.

Assuming you have:
a) Range
b) Arc (and there's no way someone will let you have easy ways to line up boresights if he can help it.

Actually in this case they end up about even with the relative Sulust agility/arc being matched by the AD on the Ka'Tans. Both are very potent combinations.

 

[tneva82]

it is possible to boresight every beam, not always at targets you want sure. but if its 5 sullusts to try match ur firepower and you win init then you can have 6 boresighted on whichever you want.

Well okay if you win initiave and opponent doesn't have something somewhere where you can't instantly reach.

6 boresighted? Where's the other 4 boresights? Seems even in your example you don't boresight all...

 

[katadder]

well 10 can boresight but 6 can all target teh last thing moved.

 

[tneva82]

well 10 can boresight but 6 can all target teh last thing moved.

And how 10 will boresight if Narns have to move first? Or Centauri moves first something you can't boresight into in first movement?

 

[katadder]

I said if you win init. but if you really want some init sinks take 9 ka'tans and 2 sho'kov torpedo cutters. that means you are reduced to a mere 36beam dice.