Omnipotent
Mongoose
skavendan said:
Reduce there hull or hitpoints and crew...would be simple enough yeah.
Most important fix
- Thread starter Scipio
- Start date
Reduce there hull or hitpoints and crew...would be simple enough yeah.
Yesterday in a 5 Battle point battle between Minbari and Narn the Narns G'Vrahn got hit in the first shot with a "No repair ever" crit and in the shot immidiatly after that another crit that set it adrift...
That should be very unlikley to happening to a War level ship that lost less than 10% damage.
So from shot one the G'Vrahn were taken out of the battle without taking much damage at all (almost half the Narn fleet in points).
Crit combinations like this should be more unlikely the higer PL the ship has otherwise it's will just be stupid to take big ships anyway.
And as it is it is not very unlikely at all to have a high PL ship be affected by similar crit-combinations.
That should be very unlikley to happening to a War level ship that lost less than 10% damage.
So from shot one the G'Vrahn were taken out of the battle without taking much damage at all (almost half the Narn fleet in points).
Crit combinations like this should be more unlikely the higer PL the ship has otherwise it's will just be stupid to take big ships anyway.
And as it is it is not very unlikely at all to have a high PL ship be affected by similar crit-combinations.
Methos5000
Mongoose
Ripple said:
I think Vitals should just be repairable, maybe a DC 10 to repair or you have to wait 2 turns to attempt repairs but I think they should be repairable.
Or like you say, not having a permanent "No DC" crit would be nice alternative.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
The No DC should be that crit you get when you tick off the last damage box...
The key to fixing the swarm issue lies with the FAP. If that is fixed, most of the other issues will be minor in comparison. If the revised FAP ends up significantly cutting down on the number of ships you can field, then you really can't field swarms anymore...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
I don't agree.
If the PL is changed in that way it only will make people buy almost all of the ships from one level down or perhaps even the same level sometimes, instead of going as low as possible as is the better choice today.
It will still be a really bad idea to get a War ship for example when playing raid and still no good when playing battle for example.
Still it's better than doing nothing.
If the PL is changed in that way it only will make people buy almost all of the ships from one level down or perhaps even the same level sometimes, instead of going as low as possible as is the better choice today.
It will still be a really bad idea to get a War ship for example when playing raid and still no good when playing battle for example.
Still it's better than doing nothing.
Raid and Battle being the most common games, they need to either make cheaper versions of the canon ships, or make it so taking a War ship in a battle game at least gets you your points worth.
I hate not using the Tara'lin in competitive settings... whats a White Star without a Sharlin to back it up? NOTHING I TELL YOU! NOTHING!
I hate not using the Tara'lin in competitive settings... whats a White Star without a Sharlin to back it up? NOTHING I TELL YOU! NOTHING!
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Hindsight said:
But why? Is it because no one wants to play with War level ships or is it because War level ships just aren't worth taking, even in a War level game?
If Battle+ isn't fun because the game mechanics are broken at that level (i.e. swarms) then obviously games are going to mainly be played at a lower level.
If it was WORTH taking a War level fleet made up mostly (3/5s) of War level ships (I do believe smaller ships SHOULD fill the escort roll) rather than swarms of raid level ships and below, then I think more war level games might be played.
As it is, War+ games are often just swarms of raid level and below ships, in which case, whats the point? just play a lower PL game so you aren't dealing with as many ships.
IMO it's a two sided problem.
First of all it's the FAP chart, second its the individual ships themselves. There are few to no ships that have the same value as a ship one level above. Indeed one Skirmish level ship might actually have 66-80 % the same capabilities as a Raid level ship
The swarm issue will only really be fixed if 2 ships from a lower level are actually exactly worth a ship of one level above. Not before.
First of all it's the FAP chart, second its the individual ships themselves. There are few to no ships that have the same value as a ship one level above. Indeed one Skirmish level ship might actually have 66-80 % the same capabilities as a Raid level ship
The swarm issue will only really be fixed if 2 ships from a lower level are actually exactly worth a ship of one level above. Not before.
I'm not sure if you are responding to me or not. I said:
<<"The key to fixing the swarm issue lies with the FAP. If that is fixed, most of the other issues will be minor in comparison. If the revised FAP ends up significantly cutting down on the number of ships you can field, then you really can't field swarms anymore...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris>>
And then you said right after that:
So you don't agree that a revised FAP that encourages people to buy ships close to their point level will cut down on the number of ships (AKA swarms)? Please elaborate...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
<<"The key to fixing the swarm issue lies with the FAP. If that is fixed, most of the other issues will be minor in comparison. If the revised FAP ends up significantly cutting down on the number of ships you can field, then you really can't field swarms anymore...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris>>
And then you said right after that:
Scipio said:
So you don't agree that a revised FAP that encourages people to buy ships close to their point level will cut down on the number of ships (AKA swarms)? Please elaborate...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
Andrew, yes I were speaking to you.ATN082268 said:
What I'm trying to say that the change in the PL-chart will make it somewhat better in regard to swarms but it will not fix it.
If we play Raid it will still be preferible to by 2 patrol and 9 skirmish ships.
You will still always loose out when buying a Raid because of the problem that two "one level down" ships always is better than one "same level" ship. Not to start talking about getting one Battle ship vs. 4 skirmish ships and one War ship vs. 8 skirmish.
This is because the two ships will in total have more damage, more activations, gets half the crit-effect in relation to the one same level ship.
I think that the worst culprit of them for making the game more varied and fun is the effects on the crit-table.
<<Andrew, yes I were speaking to you.
What I'm trying to say that the change in the PL-chart will make it somewhat better in regard to swarms but it will not fix it.
If we play Raid it will still be preferible to by 2 patrol and 9 skirmish ships.
You will still always loose out when buying a Raid because of the problem that two "one level down" ships always is better than one "same level" ship. Not to start talking about getting one Battle ship vs. 4 skirmish ships and one War ship vs. 8 skirmish.
This is because the two ships will in total have more damage, more activations, gets half the crit-effect in relation to the one same level ship.
I think that the worst culprit of them for making the game more varied and fun is the effects on the crit-table.>>
I agree with most of what you say although the value of the buying down depends a little on the race in question. Some races have better choices at certain levels and it is difficult to bypass certain levels without being penalized. In your case of 5 Raid against 9 Skirmish and 2 Patrol, it really depends upon the race...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
What I'm trying to say that the change in the PL-chart will make it somewhat better in regard to swarms but it will not fix it.
If we play Raid it will still be preferible to by 2 patrol and 9 skirmish ships.
You will still always loose out when buying a Raid because of the problem that two "one level down" ships always is better than one "same level" ship. Not to start talking about getting one Battle ship vs. 4 skirmish ships and one War ship vs. 8 skirmish.
This is because the two ships will in total have more damage, more activations, gets half the crit-effect in relation to the one same level ship.
I think that the worst culprit of them for making the game more varied and fun is the effects on the crit-table.>>
I agree with most of what you say although the value of the buying down depends a little on the race in question. Some races have better choices at certain levels and it is difficult to bypass certain levels without being penalized. In your case of 5 Raid against 9 Skirmish and 2 Patrol, it really depends upon the race...
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
stepan.razin
Mongoose
I am sorry, but I dont see the new FAP system as a way to solve the "swarm" fleet problem. All it does is screw those fleets with good low end PL ships. Letting larger ships repair crits better is a better way to go IMHO.
mrambassador1
Mongoose
how is letting larger ships repair crits better not screwing low PL fleets.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
mrambassador1 said:
because its swarm fleets that are screwing large ships?
Swarms aren't affected as heavily by crits as large ships. half the time a war level ship doesn't make it through half its damage track before it is critted out of the game.
How many skirmish/raid ships get critted out?
stepan.razin
Mongoose
mrambassador1 said:
Because that way the Drazi / EA Early can still bring the same ammount of ships as before.
mrambassador1
Mongoose
yeah, but the big ships are now stronger than before. How is bringing less low PL ships against weaker big ships any different to bringing more low PL ships against stronger big ships. Doesn't it just even out whichever way you do it. Why is one screwing low PL ships while the other doesn't. They both make small ships comparatively weaker to big ships so now 1 big ship is equal to lots of small ships.
But won't reducing the number of small ships fix the swarm problem anyway. Why change the crit system so different sized ships take different numbers of crits or are harder to crit or whatever crit fix people want, rather than just changing the number of "buy down" ships you get when you purchase below PL.
