Monsters that grapple

[Trodax]

I know grapple has been discussed here recently, so sorry for bringing this up again...

I’m a bit unsure if I’m playing creatures with the Improved Grab ability (AE page 296) right, and would be very grateful for input. I’ll wright it up as examples of how I would play some of the creatures from the rulebook, but my question really pertains to all creatures with Improved Grab.

So, this is how I’d play the following creatures:

Man-Ape (basic example)
If the Man-Ape hits with one of its claw attacks, it may roll a grapple check as a free action (no AoO is provoked). If successful, the Man-Ape is now grappling with its opponent. On its next turn, assuming its victim hasn’t escaped the grapple, it may use its Crush attack. This is resolved by a grapple check (instead of a normal attack roll), and, if successful, deals 3d8+9 damage (DR functions as normal). The Man-Ape may not use any other attack besides the Crush (such as a bite).

Panther (example of a creature with the Rake ability)
If the Panther hits with is bite attack, it may initiate a grapple in the same way as the Man-Ape above. On its next turn, if it is still grappling, it can continue biting. This is resolved by a grapple check (instead of a normal attack roll), and, if successful, deals normal biting damage (1d8+3, with DR counted as normal). The Panther may also make a Rake attack. This is resolved by a normal attack roll (against its opponents Dodge defense) at a +6 attack bonus and deals 1d4+1 damage.

Ghost Snake (example of a creature with the Constrict ability)
If the Ghost Snake hits with its bite attack, it may initiate a grapple in the same way as the Man-Ape above. On its next turn, if it is still grappling, it can continue biting. This is resolved by a grapple check (instead of a normal attack roll), and, if successful, deals normal biting damage (1d8+9+poison, with DR counted as normal). If the grapple check is successful, the Ghost Snake also deals damage from its Constrict ability (1d8+9, with DR counted as normal).

Am I doing it right? :?

PS. The rules I’m using for the Rake and Constrict abilities are from the SRD. Don’t know if this is right or wrong, I think the rules in Conan are a bit unclear.

 

[thulsa]

You didn't mention this explicitly, but note that if a monster has the Improved Grab ability, it can grab and grapple as normal, but the monster is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent. It still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dex bonus. (See p. 296 in the Atlantean Edition.)

This is different from the SRD where a creature with Improved Grab has to take a -20 penalty to the grapple check to avoid being considered grappled itself.

In other words, creatures with Improved Grab in the Conan RPG are somewhat nastier than their D&D counterparts.

- thulsa

 

[Trodax]

You didn't mention this explicitly, but note that if a monster has the Improved Grab ability, it can grab and grapple as normal, but the monster is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent. It still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dex bonus. (See p. 296 in the Atlantean Edition.)

Yeah, maybe I should have mentioned that. It is a pretty big difference from the SRD, and does indeed make these critters a lot deadlier in Conan.

What I'm unsure on isn't this though, but rather what attacks the creature is allowed to use against its grappled opponent.

 

[Stygian Overlord]

It is my understanding that while grappled a character (PC or NPC) can use natural weapons (Claw, Bite, Punch, etc.) using it's regular attack value, Light weapons (Daggers, Weapon Pommels, etc.) using regular attack values OR try to do damage through grappling (Equal to normal unarmed Melee damage) using a GRAPPLE check instead of regular attack value.

All grappled parties retain their dex and dodge bonuses against other characters they are currently grappling but cannot use their dodge bonus agains characters that are outside the grapple.

I don't have my book right in front of me but I believe that is correct.

 

[Sutek]

Yes, because they are not considered to be grappling. Improved grab sort of lets them grapple, but then not be considered to be doing so, so they get the benefit of holding on to thier prey but can still do all the stuff that the grapple rules normally preclude.

Nasty...

 

[Trodax]

It is my understanding that while grappled a character (PC or NPC) can use natural weapons (Claw, Bite, Punch, etc.) using it's regular attack value, Light weapons (Daggers, Weapon Pommels, etc.) using regular attack values OR try to do damage through grappling (Equal to normal unarmed Melee damage) using a GRAPPLE check instead of regular attack value.

Yeah, thats absolutely correct. By the normal grapple rules, you may use one of these two actions to inflict damage on your opponent:

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. (This attack is made with a normal melee attack roll, not a grapple check.) You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make a grapple check against your opponents Grapple Defence in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike: 1d3 points for Medium attackers, plus Strength modifiers. This damage ignores any DR from armour but takes account of DR derived from other sources, such as the class features of a barbarian. If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

(Note: There is also a third option, Use Opponent's Weapon, but I'm skipping that for now as it doesn't really apply to the creatures I'm talking about here.)

However, the description of Improved Grab has this to say (emphasis mine):

Improved Grab: If a creature hits with a melee attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Improved grab works only against opponents of Medium-size or smaller. Each successful grapple check the creature makes during successive rounds automatically deals damage. See the individual creature entries for precise damage amounts. When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Therefore, I have assumed that the attacks made by the creature with Improved Grab against its grappling opponent are always resolved by this grapple check. I have also assumed that DR functions as normal against these attacks, but I'm not sure if thats right or not.

The description of Improved Grab that can be found in the SRD also has one little line that is missing in the Conan description:

...each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

In Conan, this has been replaced by "See the individual creature entries for precise damage amounts". This has lead me to the assumption that, unless otherwise noted, its the weapon that established the hold that determines the amount of damage dealt.
For example, the Panther has to hit with its bite attack to establish a hold. Therefore, the bite damage is dealt on a successful grapple check on each successive round. (The Panther also has the Rake ability, which confuses things further.)

I don't know, maybe I'm making to many assumptions. :?

 

[Trodax]

*bump*

No one who can give me a thumbs up, or down, on my rules interpretation?

 

[Sutek]

Conan:AE, page 174.

If You Are Grapplingption two - Attack Your Opponent

"You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or light weapon against another character that you are grappling."

Improved Grab merely makes it so that if the creature "hits with a melee attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action witout provoking an attack of opportunity." In other words, the Man-ape makes an attack, a normal attack mind you, at +11 that, should it hit, deals it's normal damage (1d8+6) and then immediately allows a Grapple attempt at +16.

Further, the option is open to attack or make successive grapple checks. In the former case, the creature uses it's option to "Attack Your Opponent" as indicated in the Grappling rules, but only if it has natural weaponry, light weapon or unarmed attacks to deliver. In the latter case, perticularly if the Grapple attack of the creature is sufficiently high as to almost guarantee success or if the creature has some awesome follow-up attack (like the Man-ape's Crush) hen it can opt to simple make subsequent Grapple checks instead, dealing normal damage each time in addition to any bonus stuff.

See, because the Grapple check automatically deals damage, Man-apes do 1d8+6 per round that they continue to hold an opponent - automatically. In it's special attack description, the Crush says that it replaces the two claw attacks, but it also says that the Man-ape can still bite...with a +4 to it's to hit roll too. In the case of the Man-ape, it's special damage ability isn't additional damage per round, it supercedes the normal attacks.

The Saber-tooth's Rake ability isn't restricted in that way. It makes it's attack and if it hits, automatically Grapples and allows the Rake. This can happen every round, and with repeated successful grapple attemps (which are only slightly easier than hitting normally) it automatically does it's normal damage (2x 1d10+7) plus it's Rake option (2x 1d8+3), but the latter has to succede at an attack roll (+9). Now, because natuaral weapons can still be used during a grapple, that Saber-tooth can still bite too, potentially getting to invoke it's Puncture ability.

Don't get grabbed by a Saber-tooth.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Don't get grabbed by a Saber-tooth.

Always good advice.

P.S. Nice to see you survive the blow over.....8)

 

[Trodax]

Thanks for your reply Sutek!

If You Are Grapplingption two - Attack Your Opponent

"You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or light weapon against another character that you are grappling."

¨
Yup. Also note that this description goes on to say: "You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons." See below for why I mention this.

Improved Grab merely makes it so that if the creature "hits with a melee attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action witout provoking an attack of opportunity." In other words, the Man-ape makes an attack, a normal attack mind you, at +11 that, should it hit, deals it's normal damage (1d8+6) and then immediately allows a Grapple attempt at +16.

So far I'm with you 100%.

Further, the option is open to attack or make successive grapple checks. In the former case, the creature uses it's option to "Attack Your Opponent" as indicated in the Grappling rules, but only if it has natural weaponry, light weapon or unarmed attacks to deliver.

OK, that might be right. However, if it uses "Attack Your Opponent", it will take a -4 penalty and can only use one of its weapons, as noted above.

In it's special attack description, the Crush says that it replaces the two claw attacks, but it also says that the Man-ape can still bite...with a +4 to it's to hit roll too.

This is actually what got me confused in the first place; the description of the Man-Apes Crush ability. It really implies, just as you are saying here, that the Man-Ape could normally use both its claw attacks, and a bite attack, against a grappled foe (but has the option to replace the two claw attacks with the Crush).
This doesn't really mesh with the normal grapple rules. There is no such thing as a Full Attack action when grappling, all you get to do is choose one of the actions from the list on page 174. (Well, actually, if you have multiple attacks because of a high BAB, you get to perform more than one of these actions.) Damage Your Opponent deals damage (once) on a successful Grapple check and Attack Your Opponent lets you make an attack with one of your weapons, at a -4 penalty.

This can happen every round, and with repeated successful grapple attemps (which are only slightly easier than hitting normally) it automatically does it's normal damage (2x 1d10+7) plus it's Rake option (2x 1d8+3), but the latter has to succede at an attack roll (+9). Now, because natuaral weapons can still be used during a grapple, that Saber-tooth can still bite too, potentially getting to invoke it's Puncture ability.

Again, I can't see why the Sabre-tooth would get to use both its claws, and a bite, against a grappled foe. The Rake attack I agree with you on, though, since Rake is a special ability that specifically gives you extra attacks in a grapple (according to the SRD).

Don't get grabbed by a Saber-tooth.

This I will not argue with.

 

[Sutek]

This doesn't really mesh with the normal grapple rules.

Well, erm....no.

Page 296 of Conan:AE - blue emphasis mine:

Improved grab: If the creature hits with a melee attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action witout provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Improved grab works only against opponents of Medium-size or smaller. Each successful grapple check the creature makes during successive rounds automatically deals damage. See individual creature entries for precise damage ammounts. When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent so it still threatens adjecent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent) provided it can drag the opponent's weight.

The key statement is that the creature is not considered grappled while holding the opponent. This means that it isn't subject to any of the restrictions imposed when grappling. Another key statement is that the creature deals normal damage by simply passing a grapple check - it doesn't matter how many attacks because it simply makes a single grapple check to do it's normal damage, be that 2 claws in the case of the Man-ape or something else. It's jsut automatic damage for maintaining the hold. There's no attack roll, so restrictions for attacks dont' apply. Do you see now?

I also believ ethat the "retains Dexterity" statement should be "retains Dodge and Parry" and it jsut slipped through the cracks. I could be wrong though.

 

[Trodax]

The key statement is that the creature is not considered grappled while holding the opponent. This means that it isn't subject to any of the restrictions imposed when grappling.

OK, now I see what you are saying!
You've read the "...not considered grappled..." to really mean that the creature isn't restricted at all by the grapple rules, so it still threatens and retains Dex (of course), but is also not restricted to choose from the actions on page 174. Therefore, it can still choose to perform standard, move or full-round actions as normal.

I've been reading the "...not considered grappled..." to mean only that it still threatens and retains Dex, but that it is still restricted to performing the actions on page 174 (and can therefore not use all of its natural weapons by using a full attack).

You might very well be right on this, I'll have to think it through.

Another key statement is that the creature deals normal damage by simply passing a grapple check - it doesn't matter how many attacks because it simply makes a single grapple check to do it's normal damage, be that 2 claws in the case of the Man-ape or something else.

I still can't see why 2 claws is "normal damage", though.
The Man-Apes regular attack is 1 claw, and its full attack is 2 claws and 1 bite.
How do you arrive at 2 claws being normal?

I also believ ethat the "retains Dexterity" statement should be "retains Dodge and Parry" and it jsut slipped through the cracks.

Yeah, I agree. Thats the way its got to be.

 

[Sutek]

I still can't see why 2 claws is "normal damage", though.
The Man-Apes regular attack is 1 claw, and its full attack is 2 claws and 1 bite.
How do you arrive at 2 claws being normal?

Because that's the Man-ape's normal attacks per round. Actually, it's 2 Slams/claws (it's refered to differently in the entry) and a bite.

Now this may seem excessive, but it's to the letter of the rules. In the spirit of the rules, I can see the interpretation being that since all that is needed to establish the Improved Grab in the first place is a single successful melee attack, the rest of the "starting a grapple" rules being totally waived, then only that single attack's damage would be applied on subsequent successful grapple checks.

However, in support of the other argument (that it's all damage for any available attack), I can't see a reason to state that the Crush ability replaces "two claw attacks". Why point that out?

In other words, if one Man-ape arm is grabbing, the other might be able to attack freely as an unarmed weapon rolling to hit normally, but the Improved Grab rule states that damage can be dealt be simply making a successful grapple check (Man-ape's are +16 for this!) and cause "normal damage" automatically. It's not a question of swinging to hit, it's a situation of superior grappler rattling and mashing the life out of a victim.

Furthermore, Man-apes get a +4 bonus to bite while Crushing, so instead of 2 claws and a bite, they can have 2 claws transform into a Crush attack and do thier bite at +4. It carries on describing all attacks as still happening even under the Crush ability.

:wink: