Mongoose Traveller Stats Are Too Powerful

[captainjack23]

Actually, no, it's supposed to be based upon T5.

And we're off to the Nicean council !

Proposition Catholic: The body of Traveller is descended from above, and the same substance as the creator.

Proposition Orthodox: The body of Traveller is of a similar substance to the creator, but transformed from man.

Proposition Aryan: The body of Traveller is of the earth, but inhabited by the creator.

Proposition Gnostic: All Traveller is spirit; that of the earth is inherently flawed.

Cue religous riot, exit stage left.

Wow! A funny religious joke that isn't offensive.

Well done.

Thank you . Given the use of, and existance of, 'canon' in traveller, it seemed to fit.

 

[captainjack23]

Wow! A funny religious joke that isn't offensive.

Well done.

I found it offensive. Not enough to lodge a complaint, but offensive none the less.

Oh. Right. Well done withdrawn.

Ah. Oops. Well.
I'm astonished, but did nonetheless make an apology.
Consider the well done returned.

Always surprised at the level of education on RPG boards.
Note to self: some other people do know the Nicean creed as more than simple history, and deem it less than a reasonable target for humor.

The above was not sarcastic or ironic.

onward......

Cap

 

[AKAramis]

Wow! A funny religious joke that isn't offensive.

Well done.

I found it offensive. Not enough to lodge a complaint, but offensive none the less.

Well then, please accept my apologies. Offense was not my intent.

Accepted. I didn't believe it was intended to be offensive. (If I had believed it was intended to be offensive, I'd have reported it to the mods.)

And just as a historical note: what is commonly called the Nicene Creed isn't... it's the Nicene-Constantinoplean Creed, a minor revision of the Nicene Creed.

 

[EDG]

Thank you . Given the use of, and existance of, 'canon' in traveller, it seemed to fit.

FWIW I thought it was funny and entirely appropriate.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Wouldn't it be easier to say anyone with Vacc Suit-2+ will know the quality?

Anyone with Vacc Suit 0/1 can roll vs EDU.

That's much neater, and more in keeping with the CT way of doing things.

IMO, if you don't even have basic training in the technical skill being tested, then you won't stand a snowball's chance in hell of figuring it out... no matter how smart you might be.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yet again, you produce an example that only works if you buy Your (S4's) original premise that stats can't/mustn't outweigh skills...

Well, duh. That's what this thread is all about. You've noted that you don't agree, and that's fine. You're definitely entitled to your Traveller opinion.

I, on the other hand, have provided numerous examples as to why I named the topic of this thread the way I did. And, in addition, I've suggested numerous ways to fix the problem.

Some us do see the problem, clearly, and I've been trying to work towards a fix. By default, you're going to disagree with every fix because you don't subscribe to the problem in the first place.

All that does, though, is muddy-up things for the people interested in discussing the fixes, since your agenda is to derail each and every idea.

 

[Supplement Four]

That's much neater, and more in keeping with the CT way of doing things.

My original Vacc Suit example is straight out of CT. I don't know how "more in keeping with CT" one could get. It's not even my example. You can read it in CT...it's from the LBBs.

IMO, if you don't even have basic training in the technical skill being tested, then you won't stand a snowball's chance in hell of figuring it out... no matter how smart you might be.

Not necessarily. I certainly have never had any experience with a Vacc Suit, but I think, if I saw one, there'd be a chance I could put one one correctly. I might be able to figure out some things about it. How to lock the helmet in place. Etc.

I certainly would be no good at telling the quality of one from another. And, I doubt I'd operate the suit very well. But, a low probably chance isn't out of the question.



The rule idea I've made here--the latest one--is a tool for the GM to use when professionals would have no trouble at all with a problem whereas laymen would have a low probability chance of figuring it out.

And, also importantly, this type of thing helps defeat stat bloat in the MGT system.

 

[EDG]

Some us do see the problem, clearly, and I've been trying to work towards a fix. By default, you're going to disagree with every fix because you don't subscribe to the problem in the first place.

All that does, though, is muddy-up things for the people interested in discussing the fixes, since your agenda is to derail each and every idea.

Do you think you can possibly ratchet down the petty bickering somewhat?

Aramis - and anyone else - has every right to criticise any idea that's posted here, including your ones. I might also add that you have a history of being very forceful and obsessive about your own UGM system (I note that earlier on you even claimed that Mongoose were using your system, when the reality was that they just came up with a vaguely similar solution on their own).

Not everyone shares your opinions on game design, and while it's nice to have a rock solid system that handles wildly extreme situations with equal aplomb as ordinary ones, more often than not it's just as good to have one that just handles the norms that show up 99% of the time.

But above all, if you have a point to make then make it without bickering with people or accusing them of trying to "derail" what you say. The mechanical arguments should speak for themselves, and if they don't and people aren't persuaded as to the validity or necessity of your tweaks then you have to either explain them better, or accept that not everyone thinks they're as important as you do and drop it.

 

[Supplement Four]

I might also add that you have a history of being very forceful and obsessive about your own UGM system (I note that earlier on you even claimed that Mongoose were using your system, when the reality was that they just came up with a vaguely similar solution on their own).

Are you even familiar with the UGM? The only real difference between the UGM and MGT's system is the way stats are handled.

Both systems are 2D6.

Both have tasks that achieve success on a roll of 8+.

Both have difficulty mods that are 2 points apart.

The two have nearly the exact same difficulty DMs.

I'd call that a bit more than "vaguely" similar.



As for "dropping it", I just might do that. I'm starting to be convinced that I won't buy MGT, so my interest in it is falling (mainly because of the way stats are treated).

But, I'll remind you that I've been posting in this one thread--"on topic". And, instead of just bitching, I've pointed out a probelm and suggested several solutions to fix it.

On topic in thread. Constructive criticism. Offered ideas for solution.

 

[AKAramis]

I might also add that you have a history of being very forceful and obsessive about your own UGM system (I note that earlier on you even claimed that Mongoose were using your system, when the reality was that they just came up with a vaguely similar solution on their own).

Are you even familiar with the UGM? The only real difference between the UGM and MGT's system is the way stats are handled.

Both systems are 2D6.

Both have tasks that achieve success on a roll of 8+.

Both have difficulty mods that are 2 points apart.

The two have nearly the exact same difficulty DMs.

I'd call that a bit more than "vaguely" similar.



As for "dropping it", I just might do that. I'm starting to be convinced that I won't buy MGT, so my interest in it is falling (mainly because of the way stats are treated).

But, I'll remind you that I've been posting in this one thread--"on topic". And, instead of just bitching, I've pointed out a probelm and suggested several solutions to fix it.

On topic in thread. Constructive criticism. Offered ideas for solution.

It is just as similar to MT as it is to UGM. It's also closer to Decipher Trek than to either Traveller edition, S4...

And yes, I can attest that EDG is familiar with it from before he left COTI.

 

[EDG]

(double post)

 

[EDG]

Are you even familiar with the UGM?

I'm familiar with it ad nauseam. I seem to recall you trying to shove it down everyone's throats on CotI too when CT+ and ACT were announced.

The similarity stems from parallel evolution - fixing the same flawed source - nothing more. Similarity doesn't really make either more valid, both the UGM and MongTrav systems may have similar flaws as well as strengths, and undoubtedly neither is perfect (like any system).

But, I'll remind you that I've been posting in this one thread--"on topic". And, instead of just bitching, I've pointed out a probelm and suggested several solutions to fix it.

Right. You made your point at least 10 pages ago. So leave it with Gar and let him decide whether your fix is worth considering. If he does think it's useful then expand the concept, but if he doesn't see a problem then I guess you're out of luck and undoubtedly you'll consider the game to be poorer as a result.

 

[Supplement Four]

It is just as similar to MT as it is to UGM. It's also closer to Decipher Trek than to either Traveller edition, S4...

Explain to me how MGT is "just as similar to MT as it is to UGM".

And yes, I can attest that EDG is familiar with it from before he left COTI.

I find it interesting that people who panned the UGM are now embracing MGT.

 

[Supplement Four]

So leave it with Gar and let him decide whether your fix is worth considering. If he does think it's useful then expand the concept, but if he doesn't see a problem then I guess you're out of luck and undoubtedly you'll consider the game to be poorer as a result.

I am leaving it to Gar. See, Aramis comes in, derails the topic of the fix, and now we're speaking to the UGM and whether MGT is closer to MT than it is the UGM...we're speaking about anything but the fix.

That's what I meant about derailing. You're helping him. Good job.

And, absolutely I'll consider the game to be poorer if a big flaw isn't fixed. Why would one buy a game with a problem like that when one already owns other Traveller editions?

The only reason I can see to buy MGT is if its better than what's gone before. The stat issue happens to be a big issue to me. So, if MGT doesn't measure up...well, it doesn't measure up.

 

[Allensh]

All I know is this...

In actual play, my players love the task system, the skill rules, the timing/effect stuff, all of it. I have never heard any of them say "you know, these stats have way too much influence on the outcome of die rolls". They just say "cool! I made the roll!" or "damn! I missed!"

Allen

 

[AKAramis]

S4, do you realize that you have essentially and repeatedly accused MGP and Gar of plagiarism?

And not just here, but elsewhere?

 

[Supplement Four]

In actual play, my players love the task system, the skill rules, the timing/effect stuff, all of it. I have never heard any of them say "you know, these stats have way too much influence on the outcome of die rolls". They just say "cool! I made the roll!" or "damn! I missed!"

That's awesome. I'm glad you're having a great game.

I'm not playing right now myself, but all of us are professionals. We're old foggies. We've all been playing for two decades plus. And, we do tend to look at things with a squint if there's a problem with it.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4, do you realize that you have essentially and repeatedly accused MGP and Gar of plagiarism?

One can't copyright a dicing system. And, it's a bit of a complement, really. Also, I get a bit of a kick out of people, like yourself, who bitterly panned UGM and now embrace the same mechanic.


Hey! Aramis! I've got an idea! Why don't we talk about plagiarism now instead of the fixes for the stat bloat issue?

Yeah! That would be cool! Let's do that!

 

[AKAramis]

S4, do you realize that you have essentially and repeatedly accused MGP and Gar of plagiarism?

One can't copyright a dicing system. And, it's a bit of a complement, really. Also, I get a bit of a kick out of people, like yourself, who bitterly panned UGM and now embrace the same mechanic.


Hey! Aramis! I've got an idea! Why don't we talk about plagiarism now instead of the fixes for the stat bloat issue?

Yeah! That would be cool! Let's do that!

Gee, last i checked, copyright violation and plagiarism are two different things. And you keep claiming they used your idea (without credit). Which is plagiarism, if true. Not copyright infringement; I never said anything about copyright.

It does, however, provide a good argument for your non-credibility.

 

[EDG]

One can't copyright a dicing system. And, it's a bit of a complement, really. Also, I get a bit of a kick out of people, like yourself, who bitterly panned UGM and now embrace the same mechanic.

Did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons they panned the UGM because of the way it was presented? You can stroke your ego all you like over it, but the fact remains that MongTrav is not the UGM. At best, it's parallel evolution.

Honestly S4, you've made your points a thousand times. And as I said and as allensh points out, what you see as a major problem doesn't turn up in actual play... so it's not a major problem.

I'm sure Gar understands the point you're making by now, and it's up to him as to whether he does anything about it. But unless he sees situations that are going to crop up a lot and on a regular basis in actual play that are screwed up unless your fixes are applied, I doubt he's going to do much about it. And if that's the case, then that's it, end of story, you have once again failed to convince people who are paid to design games that your house rules are superior to what they come up with.