Military Weapons

[phavoc]

Collective self defense means that you need access to effective military grade weapons in order to help defend your community; if laser weapons fit in this category better than ye lead slug thrower, laser weaponry would have to be legal.

You are talking about a "well armed militia". The concepts have changed over time, as in ye olde days of olde, muskets weren't considered military weapons, at least not in the Americas. In Europe there wasn't as much wild hunting because all the lands were owned by someone, thus the need to fill the stewpot with something you killed wasn't present. If you go further back in European history you'll find that, to an extent, militiamen sometimes were required to maintain a weapon for when or if they were called up to form a fighting force.

Switzerland might be a better example of this, as they still have a militia/guard of sorts, at least in a different sense than the US. The US does have a Guard and a Reserve (one state level, one federal), however the personnel don't keep anything other than their personal gear at home. Their small arms are kept locked up at their armory where their other gear is.

In Switzerland however, the militia are provided an arms safe to store their auto-rifles and 600 rounds of ammunition. This provides instant access to their basic weapons, though anything heavier is kept stored in their armory.

It's an interesting comparison, as Switzerland has very low gun crime while thousands of individuals have fully automatic weapons stored in their homes. While here in the US we have a very high demands for guns, we have very high gun-related crimes and we have far too many children and adults accidentally dying due to gun accidents.

Makes you wonder what the Swiss put in their water...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In Europe there wasn't as much wild hunting because all the lands were owned by someone, thus the need to fill the stewpot with something you killed wasn't present.

If by Europe you mean England and France. In large parts of Europe there were plenty of wilderness and plenty of hunting, and hence plenty of weapons.

Makes you wonder what the Swiss put in their water...

Or what the US and other violent societies does wrong...

Scandinavia has plenty of civilian guns, mostly used for hunting, but gun crime is of course much lower than in the US.

 

[Condottiere]

The Imperium might be a little leery of placing weapons in the arms of their subjects, but the Solomani positively encourage it.

It might make counter insurgency a little tricky, but acts as cat repellent.

 

[-Daniel-]

The Imperium might be a little leery of placing weapons in the arms of their subjects,....

Not sure I agree with this assessment. The Imperium is a feudal structure and each local Duke, Lord etc has in many cases a whole army let alone a few guns. I would not see why we should assume the Imperium itself has issues with it's citizens owning guns. Now specific planet governments might. :wink:

 

[wbnc]

The Imperium might be a little leery of placing weapons in the arms of their subjects,....

Not sure I agree with this assessment. The Imperium is a feudal structure and each local Duke, Lord etc has in many cases a whole army let alone a few guns. I would not see why we should assume the Imperium itself has issues with it's citizens owning guns. Now specific planet governments might. :wink:

a few miles can change the rules for weaponry. If I was walking down the streets of Hazard Kentucky with my Mini-14 I'd be receiving a visit from the local constabulary post haste. but twenty miles up the road back in the hills the conversation with a deputy or game warden would be.....

"What ya doing out here?"

"Hunting coyote":

"Got a permit?"

"yep"

"Ne rifle.....need any more ammo?"

In general I would tend to say that if a ocal authority was banning the use of military weapons they'd consider anything in current use by the military to be in that group.

although there are exceptions.

You can own a flamethrower if you like in most states in the US...of course if you light it up in town they are gonna be reallllllyyyyy peeved., and most likely exercise extreme prejudice in your apprehension if you use it in a crime..go figure....

 

[Condottiere]

Apparently, some coyotes shoot back.

Going by Second Imperium history, they weren't too keen on militia, which might have deterred opportunistic raiding, and local governors appeared to like hiring dog soldiers as mercenaries.

Which anyone familiar with Roman (British) history knows, doesn't usually end well.

 

[wbnc]

Apparently, some coyotes shoot back.

Going by Second Imperium history, they weren't too keen on militia, which might have deterred opportunistic raiding, and local governors appeared to like hiring dog soldiers as mercenaries.

Which anyone familiar with Roman (British) history knows, doesn't usually end well.

No, they travel in packs of ten or twenty....Had two guards pinned up in their guard shack by a pack scavenging the trash outside their guard house which is why I kept a rifle and spare mags for it in the car when I worked sites that would take 30-40 minutes to get to if the Polic were at the foot of the mountain. Some regions are only civilized in the immediate vicinity of towns, or small neighborhoods. Eastern Kentuck is like that there is still a lot of areas where the nearest Law Enforcement is 30 minutes away at best.and people sometimes work in areas that need a 4 wheel drive to get to( coal mines, natural gas pipelines and pumping stations etc..).

Situations like this could occur on worlds where settlements are concentrated in hospitable areas, but work sites are in less civilized areas. In areas where that's the case, the local authorities may have two sets of rules one for "In Town" and one for the "Outback/Bush/Badlands"

Also, I am not so sure about the Imperius stance on militias...the Imperium allows mercenary companies, sells armored vehicles to civilians and allows purpose built civilian warships such as the Merc Cruiser. It may be a case where if you want to form a civilian militia you have to set it up as a merc company, fill out some paperwork and pay a fee.(a grossly simplified description of the process) A local Lord may frown on Merc Units running around with their guns in civilized areas or landing a Merc Cruiser on the public park. But have no trouble with them if they politely go somewhere else to use them...or if they will take occasional jobs for him under the table.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Situations like this could occur on worlds where settlements are concentrated in hospitable areas, but work sites are in less civilized areas. In areas where that's the case, the local authorities may have two sets of rules one for "In Town" and one for the "Outback/Bush/Badlands"

Agreed.

... allows purpose built civilian warships such as the Merc Cruiser.

I think the Imperial Navy would laugh themselves silly at the notion of the Mercenary "Cruiser" as a warship. A ship with no defences and no noticeable armament is no warship. They might refer to it as "Troop Transport, Small, Inefficient".

I don't think the Imperium cares one whit about any local militia. The Imperium rules space, local systems can explicitly have their own armies, navies, and even wars.

If you have thought of rebelling, they would gladly demonstrate that the Imperial Navy and Imperial Army is larger and better than your local piddling forces. The smoking, radioactive ruins of your world would serve as an excellent object lesson for the next would-be rebel.

Pay your taxes, don't use WMDs, and don't disturb interstellar trade, and you can do what you like with your own system.

 

[wbnc]

Situations like this could occur on worlds where settlements are concentrated in hospitable areas, but work sites are in less civilized areas. In areas where that's the case, the local authorities may have two sets of rules one for "In Town" and one for the "Outback/Bush/Badlands"

Agreed.

... allows purpose built civilian warships such as the Merc Cruiser.

I think the Imperial Navy would laugh themselves silly at the notion of the Mercenary "Cruiser" as a warship. A ship with no defences and no noticeable armament is no warship. They might refer to it as "Troop Transport, Small, Inefficient".

I don't think the Imperium cares one whit about any local militia. The Imperium rules space, local systems can explicitly have their own armies, navies, and even wars.

If you have thought of rebelling, they would gladly demonstrate that the Imperial Navy and Imperial Army is larger and better than your local piddling forces. The smoking, radioactive ruins of your world would serve as an excellent object lesson for the next would-be rebel.

Pay your taxes, don't use WMDs, and don't disturb interstellar trade, and you can do what you like with your own system.

I would agree that the Imperium Navy Looks at a Merc cruiser cracks its knuckles and chuckles.."Time for some target practice boys."
Post Action report: Hostile Armed Civilian spacecraft, Target engaged at 18:30hours destroyed at 18:33 Hours no significant damage, no casualties, hostile destroyed with all hands, Continuing on assigned patrol route...full report follows.

I think it might be more than likely the Imperium treats civilian armed groups along the lines of how The British Empire treated the minutemen in the colonies... as long as there was no trouble they ignored them as untrained, undisciplined poorly armed, occasionally useful rabble.

If they got uppity theImperium, or local Duke would just send in a regiment of marines with a cruiser for fire support to disarm and disperse the troublemakers.Arrest a few ringleaders and scold/replace the local authorities for not properly controlling their population. With a few notable exceptions that practice kept the major powers in business for a couple of centuries.

 

[Condottiere]

The composition of the Imperium Army seems to be an ongoing discussion, though I'd vote for the Imperial Guard as the more likely variant.

A one kay corvette is likely to be able to deal with most civilian or paramilitary spacecraft, if not perforate them. And since there are a lot of these small combatants, interstellar navies probably will encourage aggressive approaches.

 

[-Daniel-]

Pay your taxes, don't use WMDs, and don't disturb interstellar trade, and you can do what you like with your own system.

Yep, this is how I have understood things and thus played them in my games. Imperials get involved if things are too out of hand, but otherwise they let the locals run the show.

 

[Jame Rowe]

You can bet that well funded police departments will line their body armour with reflec.

And they'd look like a bunch of walking frozen dinner packs.

Sure, at TL 10. It'd be less so at higher TLs.

Also, I have a house rule for if I ever run Traveller; laser pistols are rated under the same law level as a regular pistol or revolver (as is a civilian gauss pistol, i.e. not a fully automatic one).

 

[-Daniel-]

(as is a civilian gauss pistol, i.e. not a fully automatic one).

I like this idea. Take the Autofire feature out and it is not a military only model. Have to add this to my house rule file. :mrgreen:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Most nations prohibit concealable firearms first.

In Scandinavia, as I think in most countries, it is much more difficult to get a license for a pistol than for a rifle.

So the gun law table is very much an artefact of US prejudice and makes very little sense to anyone else...

 

[alex_greene]

It is perhaps fortunate that we are discussing the Law Levels of the Far Future, and not the politics of the modern day.

So perhaps we ought to confine our discussions to the weapons of the Traveller setting, and leave real world politics out of it.

Or even maybe consider the matter closed, for now, because it looks as if everything that needed saying has been said, and now everybody is just rehashing the same arguments.

 

[Jame Rowe]

(as is a civilian gauss pistol, i.e. not a fully automatic one).

I like this idea. Take the Autofire feature out and it is not a military only model. Have to add this to my house rule file. :mrgreen:

You're welcome. Also, I have moved pistols to where shotguns are, shotguns and rifles down one level each.

 

[-Daniel-]

Or even maybe consider the matter closed, for now, because it looks as if everything that needed saying has been said, and now everybody is just rehashing the same arguments.

I agree. As the person who started this thread I can say not only has my question been answered but I have picked up a few extras as well. So thank one and all for your input.

 

[Nobby-W]

Why are all Laser weapons considered worse that projectile weapons. They are banned down at Law Level 2 for example. Now Energy Weapons like Plasma Rifles make sense. The massive destructive power they hold. But a normal Laser Carbine? Why is it worse than an ACR for example?
[ . . . ]

I actually tend to lump all military, energy and automatic weapons together into an amorphous blob of 'outlawed somewhere between LL2-4'.

Here's another approach ...

Laser weapons have no physical rounds so no there are identifying marks beyond 'shot with a laser.' Proving whether a specific laser weapon caused a wound isn't possible, at least not in any legally robust matter. Also, they can be recharged from the mains so there way to control ammunition supply. Thus, at some point laser weapons get popular with organised crime or gangs due to their un-traceability, so they wind up getting banned in most jurisdictions through their reputation as a gangster's or mob assassin's weapon.

The meme spreads across jurisdictions through the proliferation of sensionalistic news reports and genre gangster movies, so the idea starts crossing jurisdictions and within a generation or two it becomes a de-facto standard in most local legislative environments. The authorities and police get (understandably) quite jumpy at the notion of gangsters (or even random petty criminals) having access to untraceable weapons with an unlimited supply of ammunition - especially ones capable of penetrating most body armour - so the legislation is not hard to sell.

 

[Condottiere]

CSI: Regina probably looks for background radiation, which might differ due to frequency variations due to components manufactured by different corporations.

 

[Nobby-W]

CSI: Regina probably looks for background radiation, which might differ due to frequency variations due to components manufactured by different corporations.

Better call Zaul then, or Bwappitawob his Newt partner. He'll take them apart in pretty short order.

Your honour, we have esatablished with a 83% probability that the murder weapon was, indeed a Mk IX laser carbine. Why yes, your honour, my client does indeed own a Mk IX laser carbine, but then so do 7,361,293 other citizens who have registered examples, plus an unknown number of illegal ones. However, we have failed to prove that it could not have been a MK XIII, nor have we managed to prove exactly which one of the 103,291,540 items manufactured of the Mk IX it actually was and we have comprehensively failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was the one belonging to my client.

As several witnesses have testified to my client's attendance at Don Vinny's funeral less than one hour before the time of the murder, and the Regina City air traffic control have not been able to furnish records of air/raft movements on that day, my client has a watertight alibi as he could not possibly have gotten to the victim's homestead in the time after the funeral.

Therefore, the jury has no option but to find my client not guilty.