MgT HG 2e Step 10 Determine Crew

[legozhodani]

I thought performing marriage at sea was a myth?

 

[Jeraa]

I thought performing marriage at sea was a myth?

Depends on where the ship is registered. Most countries don't allow it, but some do. Some only allow it under certain circumstances.

 

[steve98052]

[Yes, much is modeled on the real world. In some cases it has been accused of modeling things so closely on real world US, beyond what could realistically be expected to persist for millennia, that some aspects of Traveller picked up the derisive nickname "Yanks in Space".

The creators of Traveller are based in the US and at least one of them had served in the, I believe, United States Army so the accusation about the modelling is probably valid.

Marc Miller served in the US Army and went to university on the GI Bill. There he met many of the others who became GDW. William Keith Jr served in the US Navy. No Merchant Marine or other services analogous to Traveller services though, as far as I can find.

[First example snipped.]
"Your lordship, we've been fired upon; we sre in combat. I must assume command for the duration."
"Captain, that was just a warning shot. We're not in combat. I think they're bluffing."
"Warning shots are combat. I am in command. Eneri, remove his lordship from the bridge."
"You're fired!"
"You can't fire me during combat. Fire me later if we get through this in one piece. Eneri?"
"Yes, captain. This way, your lordship. I wouldn't want to wrinkle your uniform with my handcuffs."

In the second example my impression is that the owner is in command of the ship and when the "Captain" takes command the individual is technically a mutineer. A Court of Inquiry, provided they all survived, might acquit the "Captain" but then again they might strip the individual of his Master's license/papers, sent to prison, and/or executed.

My assumption in the second example was that "captain" was employed by "his lordship" to be in chargein the event of combat. If that were not the case, he might be found guilty of mutiny unless he could make the case that the noble was not licensed for operational authority, only administrative authority. On the other hand, courts might find for the noble because he or she is a noble -- or if "captain" handles the situation to the noble's satisfaction, the noble might just give orders that the disagreement never happened.

 

[legozhodani]

I know that statutes in UK and USA navy manuals specificaly stop them. Also Russian and French as well I believe.

Not sure who would allow it.

 

[Jeraa]

I know that statutes in UK and USA navy manuals specificaly stop them. Also Russian and French as well I believe.

Not sure who would allow it.

Bermuda, for one. Japan allows it, but only for Japanese citizens.

 

[steve98052]

I thought performing marriage at sea was a myth?

Depends on where the ship is registered. Most countries don't allow it, but some do. Some only allow it under certain circumstances.

By popular demand, it seems that most major cruise lines have gained their captains the legal right to perform marriages through the laws of their nations of registration. But it's not a given unless a captain has the authority under some other title. Extensive research here:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/fashion/weddings/a-marriage-at-sea-get-me-rewrite.html

US Navy regulations say that captains aren't supposed to do it on Navy ships outside US waters. No regulations grant them that authority, unless they have another appropriate title under applicable state law.

In a Traveller setting, I'd rule that starship captains do have that authority, on the basis that the demand would exist among passengers who would see a starship wedding as romantic, and starship liners would respond to that demand by lobbying to receive that authority.

In the case of military starships, they might also have that authority, because fraternization between crew members happens, and it's better for discipline for crew members to marry with the formal approval of their commanding officer than to have to find the Far Future equivalent of anew Elvis impersonator to perform the ceremony during a shore leave break.

 

[Condottiere]

Marriage has legal obligations and protections, and needs to be recognized by most, if not all jurisdictions.

I'd have them registered and certified by the next starport authority.

 

[steve98052]

Marriage has legal obligations and protections, and needs to be recognized by most, if not all jurisdictions.

I'd have them registered and certified by the next starport authority.

Individual Traveller worlds are diverse, even more than individual nations in the real world are diverse. Some worlds might legally recognize marriages of any number of consenting sophonts, even of mixed species. Some might recognize marriages only according to the laws of a dominant religion, or leave marriage law up to the rules of any recognized religion. Some might offer no legal recognition of marriage at all. Some might recognize marriages performed under other worlds' laws even if they are not allowed under their own laws, while others may refuse to recognize any marriage that doesn't conform to their own laws, or even require that marriages performed under other laws be reaffirmed locally to have legal recognition.

On the other hand, the Imperium would likely have its own (probably minimalist) laws about marriage, which would apply in space, on the starport side of extrality lines, and on worlds that adopt Imperial law as their own, or agree to recognize Imperial law on marriages performed elsewhere.

A marriage performed aboard a starship would be under Imperial authority, so Imperial law would apply. I would argue that the Imperium would recognize any marriage of any number of sophonts, as long as there is unanimous consent among all parties involved. That's because there are at least two major race sophont species in Imperial space for which relationships of more than two parties are standard:
- Droyne cannot reproduce without the participation of at least three castes.
- Aslan females are about three times more numerous than males, and polygyny has been culturally standard since before they achieved space flight -- and they even recognize humans (and presumably other sophonts) as Aslan if they are culturally Aslan.

Archduke Norris is not married, but is rumored to have a special relationship with a man. His heir-apparent is a daughter (borne by a gestational surrogate whose identity is secret) who is his clone, except for replacement of his Y chromosome with an X chromosome (and presumably the egg donor's mitichondrial DNA, though that's not stated). That could imply at least two things:
1. Public attitudes about LGBT people in the Domain of Deneb require him to be at least partially closeted.
2. LGBT rights are a given under the law in the Domain of Deneb, but Norris has not married because he wants to remain available for a diplomatic marriage if that becomes politically advantageous.

 

[Condottiere]

As long as it within their norms, most cultures will accept marriage status, as long as it's legitimized in the other culture.

Registering at a starport would be the interstellar secular equivalent, which depending on a ship captain's powers invested in him, just verifies the ceremony took place in space.

Or the captain cross trains in clergy.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

As usual my topic has wandered a bit from the starting point.

To recap in MgT HG 2e Step 10: Determine Crew the first entry on the Crew Requirements Table p. 21 under first column titled Position is Captain, a dashed line in the Skills column, Salary Column = Cr10,000, Commercial column = "Usually the leading officer", and in the Military Column = 1.

Digging through CRB 2e Chapter 8 Space Combat p. 154 Crew Duties is the following information:

"There can only be one pilot and one captain, but other duties may have multiple Travellers performing then and Travellers can move between different duties during combat."

"Captain: Commands the ship, and can use Leadership and Tactic Skills."

Based on my military background and research on the position of Captain my take is:

A Ship's Captain/Master is in command and is personally accountable for the safety of the ship, everyone onboard and everyone who may be affected by the actions of the ship and crew.
The Captain/Master has either or both Tactics and/or Leadership Skills. All spacecraft, that are not port utility vessels or subordinate craft carried aboard another spacecraft/starship, require a commanding officer regardless of rank.

The next item is how does one determine which PC or NPC is the leading officer. My efforts so far has not found an information in either MgT CRB 2e or HG 2e. However, CT LBB 2 Starships, which the HG 2e Crew Requirement Table appears to have been built from, in my opinion offers a solution.

In CT the positions of engineer, medical, gunner, and steward designates the PC/NPC with the highest Skill Level required for the position as the Chief Engineer/Medic/Gunner/Steward.

Based on the information in CRB 2e the Captain should be the leading officer with the highest leadership or tactics skill level.

My impression is that a Commercial ship per CRB 2e requires a Captain.

How a Commercial Ship's Captain is determined is left up to the designer, a Referee, and/or the players.

 

[allanimal]

The next item is how does one determine which PC or NPC is the leading officer.

If it's the PCs' ship, the players decide who is the captain.
If it isn't the PCs' ship, the GM decides.

 

[Condottiere]

As a merchant mariner, once you get promoted to First Officer, you're likely certified to captain all commercial ships; or should be.

I'm not too sure how private owners get certified to pilot their yachts or pleasure craft, multiple choice exams?

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello allanimal,

The next item is how does one determine which PC or NPC is the leading officer.

If it's the PCs' ship, the players decide who is the captain.
If it isn't the PCs' ship, the GM decides.

What criteria will the players and/or GM use to determine which PC or NPC is the leading officer to fill the position of Captain?

In MgT HG 2e an officer requires a skill in Leadership or Tactics to be part of the crew. A Commercial ship's Captain is usually the leading officer and as an officer the Captain requires either Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill. Leading means to me being better at being an officer and the measure of an officer is either Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill.

In MgT the Captain is usually the leading officer which requires a skill level of Leadership or Tactics. Being an officer at least one of PC's or NPC's Captain's skills should be Leadership or Tactics.

The best Traveller licensed rule set I have describing a Ship's Master/Captain is from the Traveller 20 (T20), not 2,000 my error, The Traveller's Handbook pp. 345-346, which is at least closer to reality that I know and researched for ships. I failed to cite in my earlier post because I was rushing to get out of the door.

"All non-small craft (i.e. anything that is not a port utility vehicle or subordinate craft carried onboard a starship) requires a commanding officer, who is usually termed Master or Captain of the vessel, whatever his or her actual rank may be. Even Scout vessels, whose crews have no ranks, designate someone as Master. Exactly who is in charge (on a Scout vessel) can vary from day to day.

The Master is personally responsible for the safety of the ship and everyone onboard plus everyone who might be affected by the actions of the ship and her crew. The Master must be a qualified bridge officer (i.e. he or she must have at least one of the following skills: Pilot, Astrogator, Sensors). Most ship's Master's have extensive experience as a junior officer and know how to do many of the jobs aboard ship. Most also have skills like Law and Leader. Ship Tactics and similar military skills may also be useful to an armed ship, and trading skills are desirable for merchant skippers."

Yes, the players and/or GM can assign a PC or NPC to be the Captain and being an officer needs to have Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill which should be the highest skill level.

When a ship is designed unless the ship is part of a ports equipment or a subordinate craft it should have a crew position of Captain listed. A gig being operated as part of a ship does not have a Captain. The same gig that is owned and operated by an individual can be called Captain.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

As a merchant mariner, once you get promoted to First Officer, you're likely certified to captain all commercial ships; or should be.

I'm not too sure how private owners get certified to pilot their yachts or pleasure craft, multiple choice exams?

My research both in a public library and online shows that the First Mate is the ship's second in command which means that the person is probably certified as a Ship's Master/Captain.

My research about a private owner getting Captain's Papers suggests, at least in the US, they have to pass a Coast Guard exam, unfortunately I have not had much luck checking on the USCG's web site.

 

[allanimal]

Yes, the players and/or GM can assign a PC or NPC to be the Captain and being an officer needs to have Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill which should be the highest skill level.

The PCs can decide whoever they want to be the captain of a ship. Or They can vote on it or randomly determine it or play "rock, paper, scissors". it might make sense that thr PC with highest Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill should be captain, but it isn't a requirement. It might make the job easier, but it isn't a requirement.

The game should never force a character into a role, therefore I'm glad there is no rule that defines who the captain is.
Especially on a tramp freighter with say 4 PCs. On a battleship with a million crew, the PCs just a handful of them, there should be a good reason, but sometimes good reasons are "this is the scenario the GM came up with" or "My PC just spent 100 TCr on this thing, of course I'm the captain!"

The characters lack of leadership or tactics may make the job harder (in the case of leading the crew of a million NPCs, but not so much for a ship where the crew is entirely PCs.

Because even if the PC with highest leadership is captain, and rolls with effect 12 on their leadership roll, if another PC doesn't want to follow that order, that PC doesn't need to... There may be consequences in game (or even out of game ) it's a game after all.

And if "person with highest leadership and tactics" was a requirement for captain, what happens when none of the PCs have those skills? If someone comes aboard their tramp freighter who happens to have leadership is suddenly the captain?

Aaaaaand! Someone with Leadership-3 and Soc-1 isn't a better leader than someone with Leadership-0 and Soc-12....

I don't object to ships having a captain. I object to rules saying who the captain is...

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello allanimal,

Yes, the players and/or GM can assign a PC or NPC to be the Captain and being an officer needs to have Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill which should be the highest skill level.

The PCs can decide whoever they want to be the captain of a ship. Or They can vote on it or randomly determine it or play "rock, paper, scissors". it might make sense that thr PC with highest Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill should be captain, but it isn't a requirement. It might make the job easier, but it isn't a requirement.

The word "should" based on my experience of Traveller and other rule sets leaves wiggle room to decide if the highest skill level is the Captain. Had I used "will" then there is no wiggle room.

The bottom per MgT Crew Requirements the selected PC or NPC Captain, being an officer, has Leadership or Tactics as a skill.

A requirement at least from the definitions I have found in physical and online dictionaries is something that is needed by the situation. In this case the MgT HG 2e p. 21 Crew Requirements clearly indicates that an officer needs to have either Leadership Skill or Tactics skill. The position of Captain is usually the leading officer and therefore needs to have either Leadership or Tactics.

The trend I see is that with each new game rule set the "already established rules" often are skipped since everybody knows the basic rules.

The game should never force a character into a role, therefore I'm glad there is no rule that defines who the captain is.
Especially on a tramp freighter with say 4 PCs. On a battleship with a million crew, the PCs just a handful of them, there should be a good reason, but sometimes good reasons are "this is the scenario the GM came up with" or "My PC just spent 100 TCr on this thing, of course I'm the captain!"

The characters lack of leadership or tactics may make the job harder (in the case of leading the crew of a million NPCs, but not so much for a ship where the crew is entirely PCs.

I have been in games where the PC/NPC Captain did not have the skill or skills listed in the requirements which cost the party during the game. In MgT CRB 2e p. 160 the Captains Leadership skill level helps to improve the ship's ability to take the first shot.

Because even if the PC with highest leadership is captain, and rolls with effect 12 on their leadership roll, if another PC doesn't want to follow that order, that PC doesn't need to... There may be consequences in game (or even out of game ) it's a game after all.

And if "person with highest leadership and tactics" was a requirement for captain, what happens when none of the PCs have those skills? If someone comes aboard their tramp freighter who happens to have leadership is suddenly the captain?

Aaaaaand! Someone with Leadership-3 and Soc-1 isn't a better leader than someone with Leadership-0 and Soc-12....

I don't object to ships having a captain. I object to rules saying who the captain is...

The MgT HG 2e Crew Requirements state what skill is needed by the listed position.

I repeat by example of earlier Traveller Rule sets the word "should" allows wiggle room the word requirement is a bit more restrictive. However, most Traveller rule sets have a loop hole on skills which comes in the form of something like Jack-of-All-Trades.

Nope, a PC/NPC coming onboard with the skills required by being an officer does not become the ship's Captain. The decision is up to the party and/or Referee/Game Master. I must have been lucky in all the RPGs I've played one or more PC/NPC has had the basic skill needed for the position in this case the leading officer who is in the Position of Captain.

In my opinion when the action check is modified by Leadership a skill level 3 is a better leader in game terms that the individual with a Social of 12.

MgT HG 2e Crew Requirements Table states that the Captain of a Commercial Ship is usually the leading officer. The table indicates Officers require leadership or tactics. Based on established standards of Traveller the leading Engineer is the one with the highest Engineering skill.

Not meeting the requirements in my experience has ended games very quickly. Of course my characters even with the requirements frequently become NPCs since my rolls go south. The positive side is usually loosing my PC allows the rest of the party to escape.

 

[allanimal]

Hello allanimal,

Someone with Leadership-3 and Soc-1 isn't a better leader than someone with Leadership-0 and Soc-12....

In my opinion when the action check is modified by Leadership a skill level 3 is a better leader in game terms that the individual with a Social of 12.

Mechanically, the character with Leadership-0/Soc-12 will pull off a better leadership roll more often than the character with Leadership-3/Soc-1.

Leadership 3 is +3 to the roll, Soc 1 is -2 to the roll. Total modifier of +1.
Leadership 0 is +0 to the roll, Soc 12 is +2 to the roll. Total modified of +2.

 

[Condottiere]

Leadership Zero should be a preference, astronavigation a requirement for a starship captain.

Second Officers become pilots, so that should be enough for spaceship captains.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

Leadership Zero should be a preference, astronavigation a requirement for a starship captain.

Second Officers become pilots, so that should be enough for spaceship captains.

In T20 the Captain must have at least have a skill set as a Pilot or, Astrogator or, Sensors before cascading down to leadership or tactics. In the USN an officer can be a Captain by being an Engineer or Weapons Officer.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello allanimal,

Hello allanimal,

Someone with Leadership-3 and Soc-1 isn't a better leader than someone with Leadership-0 and Soc-12....

In my opinion when the action check is modified by Leadership a skill level 3 is a better leader in game terms that the individual with a Social of 12.

Mechanically, the character with Leadership-0/Soc-12 will pull off a better leadership roll more often than the character with Leadership-3/Soc-1.

Leadership 3 is +3 to the roll, Soc 1 is -2 to the roll. Total modifier of +1.
Leadership 0 is +0 to the roll, Soc 12 is +2 to the roll. Total modified of +2.

I screwed up my daft old brain translated 0 (zero) as not having the Leadership skill and you are correct. Note to self read more carefully.

Updated 12:50 PM PST

The crew position of Captain is usually filled by the leading officer who should have the highest Leadership Skill or Tactics Skill.

The "should" gives wiggle room to decided which of the two gets the Captain position.

I can go with the character with Leadership-0 and Soc-12 being the Captain since technically his leadership skill is higher than the one with Leadeship-3 and Soc-1. If the character with Leadeship-3 has a Soc DM of zero or higher my choice would be the one with Leadership-3. If someone had Tactics with a higher skill level I would tend to go with the one with tactics.