MgT HG 2e Special Fuel Tanks (Collapsible, Demountable, Drop Tanks)

[snrdg121408]

Late Afternoon PDT,

A ship installed one of the special fuel tanks designed fit its cargo hold or attached to the exterior hull. Arriving at the ship's home port or company's local base or military/scout base they are removed and put into storage until the next time they are needed.

How would you account for Collapsible, Demountable, and Drop Tanks that have been built but are not installed onboard a ship?

 

[Reynard]

Ready for delivery and installation.

 

[PsiTraveller]

On the ship that has had them removed? I would look at pg 36 and look at it this way.
Collapsible fuel tank would give the ship back 1 percent of the capacity of the bladder. So a 100 ton bladder used to take up 1 ton of internal space, so the ship would gain it back.
The Demountable tanks would give the ship back all the tonnage they had occupied, so to continue the 100 tons of fuel the ship would gain back 100 tons of cargo space.

For a Drop Tank the ship would not gain back the 0.4 tons of space because the ship would still have the Drop Tank Collar attached to it. You might allow a ship to gain that tonnage back and say the connector and piping was all removed. I am not sure if that would give more cargo space back because the space was used to get to the Jump Engines. Hand wavey time you could argue the pipes went through the cargo hold and into the wall near engineering, or give the extra tonnage back to common area.

The Drop Tank itself is just a tank of 100 tons of fuel that connects to the ship mount.

For storage at the base and awaiting the next ship to install them into I would say:

Collapsible tank: Would have a 1 ton storage box labelled 100 ton Collapsible Tank.
Demountable tanks would be 100 tons of fuel tanks waiting for the 4 weeks installation time to put them into the next ship
Drop Tank Mount: a 0.4 ton mess of connectors and explosive collars and the piping needed to hook the fuel to the Jump Engine.
Drop Tank: a 100 ton fuel tank.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Reynard and PsiTraveller,

Thank you both for the feedback.

I see that once again I've failed to be clear about what I am asking.

On MgT HG 2e pp. 36-37 the special fuel tanks are, like in CT, part of the construction process, which means they are designed of a specific class of ship. The tanks displacement tons and Cr cost are part of the ship's numbers when installed.

Yes, the removal of the demountable tank returns cargo volume, not carrying the drop tanks would leave the mounts, and storing the collapsible tank would return 99% of the cargo volume.

During the construction process the inclusion of the special tanks increase the hull's cost as well as use hull volume.

When the special tanks are not installed is their cost still part of the hull's construction cost?

What does it cost to store the tanks when not installed on the ship?

Are there costs involved to have Star Port personnel mount or demount the tanks?

 

[Reynard]

"On MgT HG 2e pp. 36-37 the special fuel tanks are, like in CT, part of the construction process, which means they are designed of a specific class of ship. The tanks displacement tons and Cr cost are part of the ship's numbers when installed."

They CAN be part of the construction process like most components and systems in the book but they can be also installed as an after market item. Nothing says they can't.

"Yes, the removal of the demountable tank returns cargo volume, not carrying the drop tanks would leave the mounts, and storing the collapsible tank would return 99% of the cargo volume.
During the construction process the inclusion of the special tanks increase the hull's cost as well as use hull volume."

Not really. The collapsible tanks take up cargo space but not necessarily on a particular vessel. It's a big bladder that fills to a certain volume normally in a cargo hold. It's not integral to the ship. The cost is the cost of the bladder, not a cost to that ship. The bladder can be removed from the ship and placed in the hold of another ship and inflated if there is enough cargo space. A dismountable tank is a series of walls attached and sealed to a section of a cargo hold with one section also containing the pump mechanism. Again, you can disassemble it, move it to another cargo hold and reassemble it. When you look at most deck plans, cargo holds are fairly regular and similar. You're not adding this to construction costs of a ship but as an add on either at the time of ship construction or any time thereafter. Only the pumps for the drop tanks are permanent on a ship but even that can be added later.

"When the special tanks are not installed is their cost still part of the hull's construction cost?"

If the referee or players are designing and having a particular ship built then they can add these features at the time of building and pay for them but they aren't permanent features. At any time during the ship's lifetime, the bladder can be folded up, sold and removed, the sections of the dismountable tank can be... dismounted, sold, and packed to go to the new owner. Either can also be warehoused for future use by the players. The pump mechanism and mounts for the drop tank should be a major project to remove. Accept the small loss of ship volume.

"What does it cost to store the tanks when not installed on the ship?"

On your ship? Nothing, The parts just take up valuable cargo space. As mentioned above, they and even the drop tanks can be warehoused and the referee determines storage fees (NOT cheap) or find a safe place to hide the stuff.

"Are there costs involved to have Star Port personnel mount or demount the tanks?"

There very well are! No one works for free. Go ask a repair shop to change your tires for free and see where that gets you. Again, referee's call for price (NOT cheap).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

During the construction process the inclusion of the special tanks increase the hull's cost as well as use hull volume.

The Hull or structure of the ship is never affected by the inclusion of optional tanks. A Drop tank is an exterior object that does not change the Hull in any way. Only drive rating is recalculated (the actual thrust is of course unchanged).

The price of any removable tank can be included in the default price of a ship, just as the price of an air/raft is included.

They CAN be part of the construction process like most components and systems in the book but they can be also installed as an after market item. Nothing says they can't.

I would agree about Demountable tanks, but not the others.

A Demountable tank can be manufactured and installed by most starports.
A Drop tank can be manufactured and installed by most starports, but the collars are a fixed ship system that can only be installed at design or during a refit.
A Collapsible tank is a fixed ship system that can only be installed at design or during a refit.

Note that the Demountable Tank has a separate rule for installing/removing them as part of the description, the Collapsible Tank does not.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's a large organization, they'll have standardized these auxiliary fuel storage containers, have facilities to keep and maintain them, and personnel trained to install and remove them.

 

[snrdg121408]

Late morning PDT Condottiere,

If it's a large organization, they'll have standardized these auxiliary fuel storage containers, have facilities to keep and maintain them, and personnel trained to install and remove them.

IIRC within the Third Imperium star ports fall under an Imperial organization called the Star port Authority or something similar in title.

Now if the organization had its own port facilities I do agree that they will have the infrastructure to maintain the special tanks.

However, a party that has their own ship with drop tanks and or demountable tanks will probably have to pay fees to at least store them when not being used at the star port. In CT Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron (TCS) the ship's crew can mount and demount drop/demountable tanks for free but take a week to do so. Having the port's staff do the work has a cost.

That brings up an additional question for drop tanks. In TCS drop tanks can be added a later time after construction for an additional cost.

Can a MgT hull install drop tanks, demountable tanks, and collapsible tanks at a later time?

 

[Condottiere]

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs one tenth the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs one point one times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.

I'd place them under minor refit, as well as subsequent alterations.

I'd say the docking ports don't compromise the integrity of the primary hull.

 

[Reynard]

In my 40 years with Traveller never have I ever heard that fuel bladders are permanently integral to a cargo hold. Maybe I missed a rule in one of the five or six editions. MegaTraveller would be the most obvious choice. Dismountables are a major pain in the engineering ass construction project that needs a bit more detail. The collapsible tank is a blow up bag easily moved about in micro-gravity and the right tools and equipment. I'll bet the manufacturer throws in the fuel hose for free.

 

[PsiTraveller]

The Demountable tanks take 4 weeks to install or remove. The cost of the tanks is 1000 per ton. The cost of installation is whatever percentage you want to add in. You could be nice and only charge a few thousand, but at 4 weeks you are looking at a months pay for a worker. A small crew of mechanics and an engineer could cost 5-10 000 credits for a months pay at starport rates, plus the cost of life support, so double that.

For smaller installations this may make no economic sense and you will have to simply make a number up. Flat rate of X credits and maybe you get done faster because there are fewer tanks.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs one tenth the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs one point one times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.

I'd place them under minor refit, as well as subsequent alterations.

I'd say the docking ports don't compromise the integrity of the primary hull.

I've searched my PDF copies of CRB 2e and HG 2e for the italicized material and have not found them could you please provide the page number or numbers.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Reynard,

In my 40 years with Traveller never have I ever heard that fuel bladders are permanently integral to a cargo hold. Maybe I missed a rule in one of the five or six editions. MegaTraveller would be the most obvious choice. Dismountables are a major pain in the engineering ass construction project that needs a bit more detail. The collapsible tank is a blow up bag easily moved about in micro-gravity and the right tools and equipment. I'll bet the manufacturer throws in the fuel hose for free.

Being lazy I would store the collapsible fuel tank in the same cargo hold that it is installed in so that I won't have to buy a new one at a later time. The stored collapsible fuel bladder requires 1% of its capacity removing that amount from hold's cargo stowage. I would consider the tank to be a temporarily permanent fixture of the cargo hold. :wink:

IIRC for hoses are included with fuel processors and/or fuel scoops so I can go along with the collapsible fuel tank coming with hoses with the price subsumed in the tanks cost.

 

[snrdg121408]

Crud, I once again missed posts when I clicked the notification email link that are time stamped by Reynard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:53 am and AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:19 am. Thank you both for the replies and my apologies for missing them.

According to the flow chart on HG 2e p. 9 Installation of Optional features is part of the construction process just like the deciding on arming the ship. If the designer does not install weapons or staterooms that is part of the design process.

A collapsible fuel tank with a 10 d-ton capacity is installed in the cargo when full takes up 10 d-tons of space. When empty and stored the tank takes up 10 x 1% = 1 d-ton of the cargo space until it is off-loaded. This is a change to the Hull's available space. My view is that a collapsible tank can be installed during construction or at a later time since, at least my image is that the pumps and probably the hoses needed to connect to the jump drive fuel tank are part of the package.

Moving the demountable tank from one hold to another hold still takes up the tank's fuel capacity in d-tons again until it is off-loaded from the hold in question. This is also a change in the Hull's available space. I agree this type of tank can be installed at any time.

Drop tanks are attached to the hull and add their fuel capacity in d-tons to the hull's d-tons. A 300 ton hull mounts a single 100 d-ton drop tank. The combined displacement while the drop tank is attached is 300 + 100 = 400 d-tons which requires the recalculation of the maneuver/reaction drive thrust. The back story for the Gazelle Close Escort states that sucking the fuel out of them and jettisoning the tanks is how the ship can make a J-5 jump. IIRC retaining the drop tanks still gives a Gazelle a better Jump range than without them.

In MgT I agree that a drop tank would be installed during the hull's original construction, which is how CT LBB HG originally indicated. CT Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron indicates that per CT LBB 5 drop tanks installed during construction cost a flat Cr10,000 adding them as part of a refit is at a cost of Cr1,000 per ton of tank. Purchasing a drop tank has a cost of Cr1,000 per ton.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

DemountableTanks: Extra fuel tanks can be installed inside a ship to increase its fuel capacity. They take up space in the ship's cargo hold (regardless of whether they are full or empty), reducing the ship's cargo capacity. Demountable tanks may be fabricated at any class A or B starport in 10 weeks at a cost of Cr1,000 per ton. Once installed, they may be demounted by professionals at any class A, B, C, or D starport for Cr 10 per ton, or by the ship's crew in two weeks at no cost. Remounting costs are the same. Once demounted, the tanks must be stored and safeguarded; storage costs average Cr10 per day per ton.

CT The Traveller Adventure, p44.

It at least gives us some idea of the costs.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I've searched my PDF copies of CRB 2e and HG 2e for the italicized material and have not found them could you please provide the page number or numbers.

MgT Trillion Credit Squadron, p16.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In my 40 years with Traveller never have I ever heard that fuel bladders are permanently integral to a cargo hold.

There is no rule that says they are permanently fixed, nor is there any rule that says they are removable.

By default components are permanently fixed, so I assume Collapsible Tanks are too.

 

[Jame Rowe]

In my 40 years with Traveller never have I ever heard that fuel bladders are permanently integral to a cargo hold.

There is no rule that says they are permanently fixed, nor is there any rule that says they are removable.

By default components are permanently fixed, so I assume Collapsible Tanks are too.

I would rule that the mounts are permanent once you have installed them.
Thats the 1% you still have when you remove them, as the actual tanks are removable.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would rule that the mounts are permanent once you have installed them.
Thats the 1% you still have when you remove them, as the actual tanks are removable.

Collapsible fuel tanks (also called fuel bladders) are large flexible bladders which expand when filled with hydrogen fuel. They take up cargo space in a ship ...

No fixed tanks, they only take full space when filled.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert and Jame Rowe,

No wonder why I could not find material cited by AnotherDilbert in MgT and I am familiar with CT Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron (TCS) which introduced the collapsible tank, internal/exterior demountable tanks, and add to CT LBB 5's drop tank information. In my copy, which is from FFE 003 Adventures 1-13 The Classic Adventures copyright 2,000 1st printing, of TCS which has the copyright of 1981 1st printing the fuel tankage rules are on pp. 13-14.

I am not familiar CT The Traveller Adventure, p44., however the text looks very much like the information in TCS.

The material from CT is what prompted my questions concerning the special tanks in MgT HG 2e.

The collapsible tank/fuel bladder details in CT and MgT suggest that the when not in use the tank/bladder is folded or rolled up freeing up 99% of the space taken up by a full tank/bladder.

Thank you both and everyone who has provided feedback on this topic.