MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

[snrdg121408]

Morning PDT Condottiere,

Considering the cost of spaceships, costs would be subsumed.

Might be a different issue if the spaceship is being remodelled.

If suit storage, maintenance, and the area to don and doff suits is part of the 2 d-ton airlock then the space and MCr requirements are indeed subsumed in airlock requirements.

A ship's locker is a defined cargo space designed to hold specific items like survival equipment, repair gear, or similar items. The space dedicated to a ship's locker should be noted separately from the general cargo hold.

Of I also feel that the freebie airlocks and other items that have space subsumed as part of other components is part of the reason for the deck plan slop factor.

Thank you all for the continued replies to the topic.

 

[Condottiere]

I think we're being overcharged for non gravitating hulls, so it's easy to let those costs slide.

Less so with volume, since that's really a crucial aspect in spaceship design.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

I think we're being overcharged for non gravitating hulls, so it's easy to let those costs slide.

Less so with volume, since that's really a crucial aspect in spaceship design.

I agree that we're being overcharged for constructed hulls that do not use grav plating. I also think we are being overcharged for hollowed out planetoid hulls since the price would be cheaper without having to bore the tunnels and lay the grav plating.

In CT fusion tunneling cost Cr1,000 per ton of usable space and Cr100 to haul the planetoid to a shipyard while in MgT the total base cost is Cr4,000. A 1,000 d-ton planetoid in CT the transport cost is Hull 1,000 x 100 = Cr100,000 and tunneling cost is 800 x Cr1,000 = Cr800,000 for a total of Cr900,000. In MgT using the full planetoid's d-tons the price is Cr4,000,000 or Cr3,200,000 if calculated with the 800 d-tons of usable space.

Unfortunately, from an earlier thread the consensus is that the planetoid hulls all get grav plating included in the Cr4,000 for transporting and tunneling them.

 

[Condottiere]

The difference being the cost of fittings, which looking at the fifty kay they're charging for the full monty, probably means the planetoid is getting underbilled.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PDT Condottiere,

The difference being the cost of fittings, which looking at the fifty kay they're charging for the full monty, probably means the planetoid is getting underbilled.

To be honest I do not have a clue, however I am not happy that only constructed hulls have the option of not using grav plates and the goes goes from Cr50,000 to Cr25,000 and planetoid hulls are required to have grav plates.

Airlocks on the other hand are a different issue.

Reviewing the material so far I'm thinking that the CRB 2e p. 143 airlock description is for a non-standard by HG 2e requirements and probably should have a cost in Cr and space calculated even when the CRB 2e airlock would otherwise qualify as the freebie.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

 

[steve98052]

There are three aspects to airlock size and cost.

1. The pumps that cycle the atmosphere would be dependent on on the volume of an airlock in terms of costs and size.

2. The embedded sensors keeping track on what's going on there, which could be simple, as indicating when in use, or have a full spectrum analysis of visitors.

3. The size and mechanism of the doors; if it's manually operated, it should cost less.

I would expect that in large airlocks there would be the option for high speed pumping equipment to cycle them in a reasonable time period. An airlock capable of transferring an entire shipping container without evacuating the entire cargo hold would be impractical if its liters-per-second pumping rate were the same as a small personnel airlock. I think I'd apply a square-cube rule to airlocks as a default, because larger airlocks should cycle more slowly, but not linear with volume.

- - -

. . .One of the basic Imperial tenets is standardization. And having the ability of oNE airlock being able to form a seal with another without a universal connection.

Of course the ideal falls apart when you consider an airlock on a scout vs. An airlock on a 10k dton liner. At least main locks. They are wholly different for functional reasons.

I would expect that the liner would include a small airlock that could be used for docking with a scout, in addition to a grand entry airlock for luxury passengers, a large but basic airlock for hoi polloi passengers, and an assortment of cargo airlocks to make handling of high passengers' dton-each cargo allowances reasonably expeditious.

- - -

Hello Condottiere,

Depends on actual mass, and spacesuit.

Half tonne includes two sets of doors and pumps.

Thank you for mentioning the vacc suit/spacesuit which I overlooked until after posting. However, as far as I can determine from the various personal combat rules in MgT HG 2e and CRB 2e one individual represented by a die-cut counter occupies one square that has the dimension of 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 with or without a vacc suit/spacesuit.

Following the MgT HG 2e airlock guidelines the standard airlock is 2 d-tons which includes two doors and the pumps allowing two vacc suited personnel to ingress/egress from the ship's interior to exterior after a one minute cycle time. Based on the information a 0.5 d-ton airlock appears to be a tight fit allowing one vacc suited individual to ingress/egress the ship in one minute. Cramming two individuals into the same 0.5 d-ton airlock would be possible but probably not on a routine basis.

Most sets of miniatures (and counter) combat rules allow more than one combatant to occupy a square (or hex), up to a limit. If they're allies, they may crowd each other if they're engaged in melee, and crowd each other in gun combat if there are more than two in a space -- and they're more vulnerable to area attacks. If they're enemies, they are limited to Close range weapons – such as knives and small pistols – and Close range unarmed combat attacks such as wrestling, Close punches, elbow and knee bashes, etc. Other types of melee – longswords, haymaker punches, spinning kicks, etc. – only work from adjacent spaces.

- - -

Planetoid hulls

To get a realistic price for the tug job would require:
1. Calculating the cost of a prospecting craft to find a suitable planetoid, estimating the time a prospecting craft spends looking for suitable planetoids (including an appropriate share per planetoid of non-prospecting overhead time), the cost of an appropriate prospecting crew, and the amortized cost per planetoid of the ship; and
2. The cost of a tug craft, an estimate of time it spends going to a planetoid, hitching it up, hauling it back, and unhooking it at the shipyard, the cost of its crew, and the amortized cost of the ship.

To calculate the cost of tunneling it would probably be similar to the cost of a basic constructed hull, because the constructed hull is probably better suited to automation, and the planetoid hull would still require grav plating, sealing, and internal fixtures. The difference is that the unused space in a planetoid hull doesn't count toward the cost, while the entire constructed hull needs to be paid for. So for a buffered planetoid with 35% original solid material would cost about 65% as much as a constructed hull of equal external volume – and the same as one of equal usable space – plus prospecting and tug costs. But it has the advantages of planetoid armor characteristics, and (possibly more interesting) it looks like a planetoid when it's not under power.

 

[Condottiere]

We don't know how much gravitational plates costs, or inertial compensators.

We do know mining costs.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere and steve98052,

We don't know how much gravitational plates costs, or inertial compensators.

We do know mining costs.

The towing and mining cost per MgT HG 2e p. 10 is
Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid Hulls: These require an asteroid to be dragged from its orbit and hollowed out to be used as the exterior hull of a spacecraft. This costs Cr4000 per ton but only 80% of the volume of a planetoid is useable as a spacecraft. For a buffered planetoid, 65% of the volume is useable.

I'm still going through MgT HG 2e's mining chapter.

From CT HG 2e p. 22
"Although a planetoid is essentially free, there is a cost of Cr1,000 per interior (non-waste) ton for fusion tunneling and hollowing of the passages and compartments. In addition, there is a transportation charge (Cr100 per ton) to being the planetoid into orbit above the shipyard.

My guess is that the prospecting was done in advance so the need of paying that cost was already done. The decision to tow and do the work needed to make the planentoid into a spacecraft is what the construction rules are concerned with.

After the almost forty years of using the simplified rules in the books I'm happy with them.

 

[Condottiere]

Actually, it should be mining costs plus twenty five thousand CrImps per usable tonne, but as I said, we don't know the actual costs of these two items.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again Condottiere,

Actually, it should be mining costs plus twenty five thousand CrImps per usable tonne, but as I said, we don't know the actual costs of these two items.

We know that the cost of a "constructed" hull with grav plates is Cr50,000 per the hull's total displacement tons, while the same "constructed" hull without grav plates or, non-gravity hull has a cost of Cr25,000 per the hull's total displacement tons per MgT HG 2e p. 10.

I consider constructed hulls to have configurations of standard, streamlined, sphere, close structure, and dispersed structure which can be constructed with or without grav plates.

Based on the information the installation of grav plates appears to be Cr25,000 per a "constructed hull's" total displacement tons.

Matthew Sprange on Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:43 pm in the High Guard is Here! thread supplied the following: "Assume planetoids do come with gravity hulls (assumption for all hulls unless you deliberately decide otherwise)."

The only way I can see that a planetoid hull will have grav plates would be that they are installed as part of the tunneling process.

Per MgT HG 2e p. 10 and Mr. Sprange's reply the cost of moving, tunneling, and apparently installing grav plates is Cr4,000.

The Asteroid Ship on MgT 2e p. 128 is a 300 planetoid configuration has a cost of MCr1.2 or Cr1,200,000/300 = Cr4,000 per displacement ton. There is no additional cost of Cr50,000 with grav plates or Cr25,000 without grav plates.

 

[steve98052]

. . .
After the almost forty years of using the simplified rules in the books I'm happy with them.

I agree with this sentiment. My point was that the simplified rules may not make economic sense if you do the math. That's OK if you're working out the cost of a ship that player characters want to buy or commission, but it may not add up if players decide that their characters want to build their own shipyard.

 

[Condottiere]

If one of them is willing to spend a term building a starship in his garage.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello steve98052,

. . .
After the almost forty years of using the simplified rules in the books I'm happy with them.

I agree with this sentiment. My point was that the simplified rules may not make economic sense if you do the math. That's OK if you're working out the cost of a ship that player characters want to buy or commission, but it may not add up if players decide that their characters want to build their own shipyard.

Economics is like everything else in Traveller is simplified for the sake of play ability. CT Merchant Prince from what I've gathered from members who are into economics have commented that they have issues, but I'm not into economics. I'm not sure about what MT or TNE or Traveller or MgT has on economics. T4 or Marc Miller's Traveller does have some economics rules. GURPS Traveller's Far Trader also details with economics.

I'm doing good making sure my check book is balanced and my bills are paid.