MgT 1 BCr Squadron Tournament

[AndrewW]

Re-read totally agree, Hull and Structure not repaired or jury-rigged in combat they are your clock from alive to dead in combat. Thank you for trying to back up my comment about getting in the vacc suit to go and repair the hull during combat, you found the rules to allow it. I think on most ships we would not find the volunteers. (but sir, they are shooting at us).

Then just replace the whole crew with R2 units.

 

[smiths121]

Sorry for the double post. Virgin Media is timing out Mongoose, but not anywhere else I've been to so did not know the first post had published.

 

[AndrewW]

Sorry for the double post. Virgin Media is timing out Mongoose, but not anywhere else I've been to so did not know the first post had published.

Happens, just had a problem load this forum myself. It's been happening on occasion lately.

 

[BP]

Yeah - the timeouts are very annoying and been happening to me for the last month - even on this post! (appears to be only Mongoose...)

Well, I'll try to respond to your post without quoting it all - appologize when I miss something...

First - sorry about the Radiation damage misinformation - I forgot I've been using a rule 'mod' somebody recommended on this forum - adding Effect of hit to Damage! (This invalidates some of my prior posts as well!)

I agree on 800 ton frames Meson Screens seem very expensive and heavy, I understand your need to put them on. I also wonder if they are worth the money/weight?. Unlike Nuclear Dampers, or Armour 8 they do not remove the automatic critical hit from a Meson Gun, which does not subtract armour, almost certainly a -1DM for the character or characters effected. Worst still, a 50ton Meson Gun bay is 5d6 damage, the screen only reduces it by 2d6. 5d6 average is 17, 2d6 average is 7. Thats 10 damage so average a double hit. How do you defend against that? My conclusion was Reinforced Hull and Structure, and having a Meson Gun bay myself - hence bigger ship.

Meson Guns are bad news

Not sure what you mean by 'automatic critical hit' - Meson Guns have range modifiers - so, the to hit roll still applies? (Noted - that the paragraph labeled 'Firing Beam Weapons' is improper).

Meson screen takes 2d6+operator skill from Damage inflicted by Meson Gun, but nothing is mentioned about radiation (assume this means that since the mesons premature decay they still leaves resultant particles that are radioactive and given their velocities already inside the hull).

So while there is no guarantee against internal damage - it is reduced by the screen - maybe long enough to neutralize it (help us Obi-Wan, you're our only hope... - well unless we face meson guns!)

Radiation Shielding is pretty effective - note it protects from meson radiation (assume it absorbs the radiation, quickly neutralizing the effects) - but it is quite costly (bit outside the budget on this tourney for my 2 ships to take advantage of the 20% discount and field more weapons - it would have been MCr 380 of the 1000).

Note that it does not take up any extra tonnage AND it cannot be seperately damaged (unlike armour and the screen - assume part of the structure of the ship).

Unfortunately, it doesn't provide any protection from the internal systems damage from the 5d6+ of meson guns. So you also need a Meson Screen.

Cheaper methods for crew are - suits, antirad drugs and more spare crew!

And yes, while they are powerfull and there is no guaranteed protection - one cannot also easily guarantee protection from any of the other bay weapons either that are quite lower in cost. Its pretty balanced really...

 

[smiths121]

Re-read totally agree, Hull and Structure not repaired or jury-rigged in combat they are your clock from alive to dead in combat. Thank you for trying to back up my comment about getting in the vacc suit to go and repair the hull during combat, you found the rules to allow it. I think on most ships we would not find the volunteers. (but sir, they are shooting at us).

Then just replace the whole crew with R2 units.

I think BP modelled that quite well with repair drones - they are computer controlled robots after all. It is late almost went into a rant about how Dewey would wipe the floor with R2, then decided to be sensible.

for repair: High Guard is one system per section. Core Rules allow multiple attempts per system if you have spare men. At 2 tons 05 Cr per man, I believe they are cheaper than auto repair and cheaper than backup systems. I think as written for a tournament, repair is to poerful.

 

[smiths121]

Not sure what you mean by 'automatic critical hit' - Meson Guns have range modifiers - so, the to hit roll still applies? (Noted - that the paragraph labeled 'Firing Beam Weapons' is improper).

Sorry, completely wrong word (would make joke about getting my "mucking words .... but family forum). "Automatic Critical Hit" = "automatic radiation hit". Like Particle Cannons, Fusion Beams et all, the Meson beam gets the crew radiation hit. Unlike the others, no armour is subtracted.

To re-state my point Meson Guns cause a Crew Radiation hit regardless of other damage (my definition of automatic). Without the armour DM, it can be nasty (average 1 crew drops by -1 DM on attempts)- the only defence is more crew at 2 tons .5 MCr.

Meson screen takes 2d6+operator skill from Damage inflicted by Meson Gun, but nothing is mentioned about radiation (assume this means that since the mesons premature decay they still leaves resultant particles that are radioactive and given their velocities already inside the hull).

Again, cannot see the skill effect for this in the book, would be quite handy though. However 5d6 v 2d6 + operator skill/no operator skill - in anyone's game Meson guns are good. Expensive though.

My take in the BCS to offset the Meson Gun threat would have been/is slightly different to yours. More crew to assign to damage control, I think crew is cheaper than the software than R2/Dewy droids. Reinforcing Structure certainly adds a turn to the survivability of the ship, and is not too bad price-wise, requires slightly bigger ships.

Annoyed with myself for missing round 1, really keen to get involved in round 2, whenever it occurs.

 

[AndrewW]

My take in the BCS to offset the Meson Gun threat would have been/is slightly different to yours. More crew to assign to damage control, I think crew is cheaper than the software than R2/Dewy droids. Reinforcing Structure certainly adds a turn to the survivability of the ship, and is not too bad price-wise, requires slightly bigger ships.

Though crew takes cabin space and life support costs.

 

[BP]

Sorry for the double post. Virgin Media is timing out Mongoose, but not anywhere else I've been to so did not know the first post had published.

Note you can edit the second one and replace its contents with a disclaimer

Damage Control seems powerful in the core rules, ...

Well, there are limits - and, in this tourney, I'm not sure the crew position limitations were accounted for (see Core pg 150 and 146). Damage control requires dedicated crew during a turn and/or repair drones. So it is not unlimited per turn. (My design traded off repair drones and CPU costs for this reason).

OK, not sure I see the limits. The only compulsory position is Pilot, and there is no limit to numbers on damage control. If you use the Full column on Crew Requirements page 113, you have 2 pilots spare to start with. There is one spare gunner per turret as well. That is a lot of spare people to run around patching up holes and kicking systems till they work.

That is the limit - you have to have the crew - even if fully crewed with 2 pilots doesn't mean you have enough gunners, screen operators, etc. (and there are also crew casualties to consider).

In addition - the repair requires a skill check (Combat repairs pg 150) - if those pilots ain't got Mechanic, then they can only try a normal repair.

They could attempt a normal repair accellerated 2 rows if they have Engineer, or Science skill. If no skills, then only 1 timing row faster at 1-6 rounds (10-60 minutes) on a 12 only.

Additionally, pg 143 only refers to damaged systems when jury rigging. Looking at Space Combat Damage - based on hits (after armoured bulkheads are gone) systems are damaged, disabled or destroyed. Interpretting this to mean that only damaged systems can be jury-rigged, others would require repair or replacement.

I have to disagree with you here. I think the word "damaged" is used in different context in damage control and damage to systems. The M-Drive hit does not have a disabled state, 2nd hit is -50% thrust rather than disabled, can it be repaired after 2 hits Mechanic checks are per system, and the effects table allows up to 3 hits (the max a system can take in combat before structure or hull hits are hit instead) to be jury rigged (Repair Damaged System page 150 Core rulebook).

I see jury-rig as getting the last remains out of a dead system during combat. After the combat, strategic rules determine if it needs replacing, whether it can be jury rigged long enough to jump and get the ship home.

Ah - I was specifically referring to the normal repair rules on pg 143 - page 150 has combat rules and they are different - which I had intended to cover (I got side tracked distiguishing damaged from disabled for normal jury rigging).

The book distinguishes jury-rigging from battlefield repairs - the former lasting 1d6 hours, the later lasting as long as the battle.

As mentioned above - those require Mechanic skill. For combat repairs they happen within one round and can cover damaged, and disabled (though I assume that destroyed and structure repair is out from rules on pg 143)

Back to the normal repair rules on pg 143:

I used the term generally in my earlier post because not all systems have the same damage states - and the M-Drive does have a disabled state - the 3rd hit, it however, doesn't have a destroyed state. The Power plant does not have a disabled state - it can only be damaged or destroyed!

This in part is also my rationale for interpreting the Repair rules on pg 143 the way I do - a Power Plant then couldn't be jury rigged (different from battlefield repairs) - it would require repair. The assumption is normal power plant damage being internal and typically involving 'melting' or 'exploding' components taking out enough that spare parts are needed and thus jury riggin is not an option - whereas M-Drive and J-Drive are being treated more like car engines which are easier to jury rig than say a battery. During combat - the power plant damage may be limited to direct physical routing and the like that can be overcome (versus internal overloads) - thus allowing battlefield repairs.

Looking at your design, your interpretation of the repair rules made you take back up systems which effected the number of decent guns you could mount.

Actually, no. I wanted backups irregardless - repair checks can fail, or competent crew/drones be unavailable. I wieghted things towards defense because I had a 'big gun' - if the ship could survive it could win against all likely comers. (Also the reason for the expensive tradeoff with the meson screen). And big ships have to protect against mass attacks by cheap weapons (like torpedoes) - if power plant or manuever is out for one or two rounds that may be all it takes for the fat lady to start singing.

The normal (non-battlefield) repair of damaged vs disabled is an interpretation - based on the rules literally as written - which may very well not have been the authors intent (as typified in a number of areas). During battle it is only really relevant if non-mechanics are trying to repair a system - since it means they cannot jury-rig systems that are disabled, they have to repair them - taking more time/negative DMs and spare parts - something a Mechanic skilled crewmember would not have to do!

Hope that was at least somewhat clear and addressed your points...

 

[smiths121]

Though crew takes cabin space and life support costs.

2 tons and .5 MCr gives scalability, required for Core Rulebook battles, where there is unlimited repair attempts the crewman has value before they becomes sick. Octagon commented he thought a house rule was needed on repair attempts . Personally I think it reflects very well the Traveller ethos of do it yourself, life is cheap, R2 units cost - however unpleasant that is.

Nice thng about thw rules is, the balance changes with different budgets.

On an aside, I was hoping reft sector sourcebook would have a TCS style tournament and campaign system in it, as throught the eras - from Classic to New Era, The Islands have been obsessed with internal self destruction. They are amongst my favourite places in the 3rd Imperium universe.

 

[BP]

My take in the BCS to offset the Meson Gun threat would have been/is slightly different to yours. More crew to assign to damage control, I think crew is cheaper than the software than R2/Dewy droids. Reinforcing Structure certainly adds a turn to the survivability of the ship, and is not too bad price-wise, requires slightly bigger ships.

Though crew takes cabin space and life support costs.

That they do.

Also Meson Guns do internal damage - with 5d6 unchecked that could easily get the 13 points needed to destroy a system (if all three hits get luck)! No repairing that!

With a high-yield upgrade the Meson Gun could guarantee 10 points - two double hits.

So, Meson Screen. It really wasn't too much of an option - if I hadn't gone for the biggest gun I could get - I would have gone for 2 Meson Bays - which given double the hit option would probably be a better choice (again - I just wanted the biggest gun I could get - and designed around that).

 

[AndrewW]

On an aside, I was hoping reft sector sourcebook would have a TCS style tournament and campaign system in it, as throught the eras - from Classic to New Era, The Islands have been obsessed with internal self destruction. They are amongst my favourite places in the 3rd Imperium universe.

It's not the most stable of areas but no new rules or anything other then some possible levels of conflict in Reft Sector.

 

[BP]

2 tons and .5 MCr gives scalability, required for Core Rulebook battles, where there is unlimited repair attempts the crewman has value before they becomes sick. Octagon commented he thought a house rule was needed on repair attempts . Personally I think it reflects very well the Traveller ethos of do it yourself, life is cheap, R2 units cost - however unpleasant that is.

They are even cheaper when you put them in cryo and use as needed - which was in my design.

Again - if those extra folks don't have Mechanic skill and/or enough computer assistance - they can become extremely limited. There is a skill check involved. And, especially in typical smaller vessel adventures - crew require life support, cabin space and salaries - and for that reason are costly. So normally, there are some very real limits on repairs.

 

[BP]

This tourney had Skill level set at 2 across the board. Essentially, this meant as long as there was crew not manning another station, they could do battlefield repair checks at DM +2.

Requiring dedicated crew for damage control (to have Mechanic) would have set an upper limit to the number of repair attempts and placed more demands on design.

(In my case, I would have had to make more trade-off to squeeze in more crew - I did however, have a plan for using repair drones when crew became incapacitated.)

 

[apoc527]

I just got to this thread--very very cool!

I hope that Octagon decides to do another, I'd totally consider entering.

One thing that might be fun if you have more players is to create 2 fleets and give each person half the budget. Or UP the budget and use the Barrage rules.

At any rate, this was very informative about MGT spaceship combat.

 

[Octagon]

All,
I'm pretty busy at the moment, but should become less busy in a couple weeks. So, now is probably as good a time as any to start the next iteration of the tournament.

I'd like to get a sense of how many people would be interested and what your preferences would be for the following:

1) budget
2) tech level
3) required performance specs
4) crew skill
5) other requirements
6) house rules
7) tactical ideas (slugfest in space or something else)

For house rules I would propose a limit to the number of times a single system can be repaired in combat and a limit to the number of repair attempts per turn.

 

[apoc527]

1) budget
2) tech level
3) required performance specs
4) crew skill
5) other requirements
6) house rules
7) tactical ideas (slugfest in space or something else)

For house rules I would propose a limit to the number of times a single system can be repaired in combat and a limit to the number of repair attempts per turn.

1) same or even maybe a bit less
2) 12-14 is fine. No TL 15 is fun.
3) ??
4) I think 2 is good.
5) none
6) limits on repairs. Other clarifications as necessary
7) I think defense of a convoy or something would be fun. One side is raider, other escort.
2)

 

[smiths121]

1) budget
2) tech level
3) required performance specs
4) crew skill
5) other requirements
6) house rules
7) tactical ideas (slugfest in space or something else)

Very interested this time round, work is less mad.

1) budget
I think 1BCr-2BCr works and keeps things small enough for the core rulebook. I am guessing if you want to try High Guard about 10BCr+.

2) Tech Level 11-14 look interesting as armour can begin to,but not completely negate the particle beam barbette, and effectively counter the particle beam turret. Battles will tend towards long range, should make your life easier. This is somewhat true with barrages as well.

3) Keep the same, seemed "in the middle". The lower the M and J requirements, more big weapons, quicker things will blow up.

4) Crew 2 seems fine considering you will add repair limits.

5) You should/could specify refuel time. Adventure 5: TCS assumed fuel processor (even had new table to work out size quickly). I noticed one of the ship met the requirements to be able to obtain fuel from a GG, but could not process the fuel. So may want to consider J fuel processed in X days (typically 1) as part of the spec to avoid military designed jumping on unprocessed fuel.

Can you clarify jury-rig. BP put back up systems on his ship as he plays destroyed cannot be repaired. My interpretation is different according to the table on p. 150 an effect of 6+ repair 3 hits to a system, bringing destroyed back to life for the rest of the combat. It packs up after combat and needs replacing(I had a car like that once!).

Clearly your interpretation has a huge effect on ship design.

6) If we end up with battles resolved with High Guard whether IWD is used or not as it changes weapon choices :roll:

7) Think slug fest is fine.

 

[BP]

4) Crew 2 seems fine considering you will add repair limits.

...
Can you clarify jury-rig. BP put back up systems on his ship as he plays destroyed cannot be repaired. My interpretation is different according to the table on p. 150 an effect of 6+ repair 3 hits to a system, bringing destroyed back to life for the rest of the combat. It packs up after combat and needs replacing(I had a car like that once!).
...

Battelfield repairs are limited - by crew, drones and software - the checks have to succeed.

The problem in the original tournament could be addressed by damage crew personnel limits - i.e. otherwise engaged personnel not being allowed to attempt repairs - and, skill level 2 only given to assigned crew roles, not all skills to everyone (hence my frozen backups!).

As to having backup systems because battlefield repairs could not fix destroyed systems - this was not the case - I had them because battlefield repairs fail after combat and I did not know if the tournament would have multiple combatant rounds - and also because backup systems can be online next round even if mechanic/repair drone checks fail.

P.S. - my variant/read on the 3 hits repaired (6+ effect) is that disabled systems can be repaired - destroyed one's cannot - so M-Drive can be repaired, but destroyed bridge cannot (especially by one person!)... I currently have also added if more hits can be repaired then exist, then battlefield repair can last past combat per normal repairs - which means without spare parts.

 

[Octagon]

It had been a little over a week and no additional requests have been forthcoming, so how about the following:

1) Budget: 1BCr (1,000MCr). The first example of any class must be paid in full, including architect’s fees. Additional vessels of the class may be purchased at 20% discount. Ammunition and computer programs must be purchased within allotted budget (no discount).
2) Tech Level: TL-13
3) Performance: Sustained Jump 4, Thrust 2 minimum
4) Crews: All crews experienced (+2 to all checks), 30 pilots max
5) Other Requirements:
a) Gas Giant Skimming: The squadron must be capable of gas giant refueling. Distributed ships may not directly skim gas giants. No specific requirements must be met by any single ship, but the designer must demonstrate that ships with a total fuel tankage equal to at least 10% of the total fuel tankage of the squadron (including vessels carried on others) are capable of meeting the required refueling parameter.
b) Fuel Processing: The squadron must be able to process all fuel within 48 hours.
6) House Rules:
a) Initial detection shall be resolved using the sensor detection ranges in the Core Rules (pg. xx). A force attacked prior to detecting the enemy shall be considered surprised and unable to act in the combat phase of the first round.
b) Armor, Hull, and Structure may not be repaired during combat
c) A ship may repair a maximum of three hits per section per turn
d) A system may have a maximum of three hits repaired on it during one combat
e) Once a system is “destroyed” (per Core rules pg 151?), it can not be further repaired during combat
f) Damage control personnel may have no other duties
7) Special Rules: ??? I was thinking of giving each side maybe one legendary crewman (+5), players’ choice of skill, or perhaps one item of imported high-tech equipment. Would anyone have any interest in something like that?

Tournament format may be elimination or round robin, depending on the number of participants.

I'll wait a few days to allow for comments. After Easter I'll start a new thread for Rd 2. I plan to leave the window open for joining until about mid-month and set a due date for submissions near the end of April.

 

[smiths121]

Looks good Octagon, count me in.

Not overly fussed about the legendary crewman or high tech stuff.
I think the legendary crewman will just give you a bigger headache in resolving the combats, as you'll need to decide where to put them if you see what I mean, or complicated orders such as if m-drive damaged then legendary crewman stops manning the 100 ton bay and becomes damage control etc.

The high tech stuff, again not overly worried - the thrill is is the design.