Merchants weapons

Who needs nukes from orbit when you have physics (i.e. rods from the gods) to do all the F=M*A? I think players are nuke happy when good ol kinetic energy strikes will be more than enough.

Rather than worry about people randomly nuking a city I'd think most planetary authorities would be far more worried about a broken down piece of junk (i.e a poorly maintained ship) falling out of orbit.
 
As always, this argument fails to resolve the initial condition. What does piracy look like in the area in question? In the Imperial Core, it's probably entirely hijackings, barratry, and opportunistic merchant in the backwaters. Very unlikely most merchants would actually be armed at all, because they are jumping from high end location to high end location.

Piracy in the Trojan Reach is quite different. And you'll need to consider whether the pirate is going to take the ship and space the crew or not even if you surrender. The significantly reduced level of safety means merchants will have to invest more in being safe, including weapons and possibly armor.

What a merchant is armed with, if anything, is going to be determined by what they can expect the other likely threats to be armed with. If the other guy has a high likelihood of particle barbettes that's gonna be quite different from if the have pulse lasers.

And so on.
 
Part of the problem a pirate has is that the Merchant doesn't care how much damage or what type they do to the Pirate so long as it stops the attack BUT the pirate DOES care about the damage to the merchant. Too much damage to the merchant and the cargo will be destroyed in whole or in part or will be scattered in space needing recovery and possibly taking more damage from exposure. No profit in the destroyed cargo.

The real piracy that works? Taking passage on the ship, being concealed in the cargo, having members of the crew be among the pirate or sabotage while in port. Much more effective as you don't fight and damage the ship, if it works you have the ship as part of your plunder as well.
 
Ehhh. It's all overall profit and loss. Making an example of a feisty merchant who puts up a fight may result in easier encounters later on.

You're correct that a pirate will aim to minimise damage to the victim, but if they expend MCr1 in ordnance and repairs in order to loot MCr2 of cargo, belongings, salvage and fittings, it's still a win. Heck, a single beam laser is worth Cr500,000!

Historically, if they fight, they die.

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A starship is in itself a weapon of mass destruction. A single beam laser on the ground is a weapon off mass destruction.

Imagine a free trader sitting on the ground in the middle of a city with its laser turned on burning through building after building...
Horsell Common is a good vantage point from which to do this, or so I am told by my fellow intellects, vast, cool and unsympathetic.
 
Part of the problem a pirate has is that the Merchant doesn't care how much damage or what type they do to the Pirate so long as it stops the attack BUT the pirate DOES care about the damage to the merchant. Too much damage to the merchant and the cargo will be destroyed in whole or in part or will be scattered in space needing recovery and possibly taking more damage from exposure. No profit in the destroyed cargo.
True in general, but of course victims of piracy able to overcome their attacks could quite legitimately take the pirate ship as a prize (although there might be some rules about dividing it with possible legitimate owners). They might also find some of the pirates have bounties on their heads. Pirating the pirates could even been a business model. Equip a fat looking Far Trader with the best possible guns and sensors, and maybe a well armed small craft, everything in pop up turrets, take on some extremely valuable cargo while "accidentally" letting information about your travel plans and cargo leak out, and go trolling for pirates.
 
Ehhh. It's all overall profit and loss. Making an example of a feisty merchant who puts up a fight may result in easier encounters later on.

You're correct that a pirate will aim to minimise damage to the victim, but if they expend MCr1 in ordnance and repairs in order to loot MCr2 of cargo, belongings, salvage and fittings, it's still a win. Heck, a single beam laser is worth Cr500,000!

Historically, if they fight, they die.

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Again this depends on the pirate. If we are talking about a professional pirate that wishes to establish a reputation to protect their profit margins this is an entirely credible approach. In order to have a reputation however you need to be identifiable. That pirate however will attract the attention of the Merchant service and Imperial Navy and as their reputation grows will become higher priority target (or be offered employment by disreputable polities).

If the pirate is a desperado then they might still baulk at murder. A pirate that can claim to have been desperate but merciful might get a lesser sentence. If they only occasionally extort a few tons of cargo out of a vessel then they might well be seen as a nuisance, declared outlaw and have a bounty put out on them. No dedicated military resources will be sent to track them down, but anyone who encounters them can legitimately destroy them with impunity.

This also all depends on if in your game you can intrinsically identify the crew of a ship that attacks you.

Your encounter might consist of a ship appearing on your sensors at distant or long range without a corresponding transponder signal and you get a pulse laser shot across your bow. It orders you to drop 5 Dtons of cargo. You are told you will not be harmed unless you try to run or engage. If you do not comply they will destroy you. You comply, it lets you go and presumably picks up your cargo shortly after. You might know the rough shape and size of the ship from RADAR/LIDAR or some other vague sensor readings. You might pick up some clues from the interaction, maybe identifying a Vargr intonation for example. "We were attacked by an armed free trader and the was a vargr aboard" and turning over your sensor logs might not give authorities much to go on. It could be a Vargr pirate crew using a free trader converted for use as a raider, it could be a normal free-trader with a single Vargr aboard or it could be a ship with a morphable hull that just looked like a free trader this time and the human captain happens to speak Vargr.

Blackbeard was hunted to death, Morgan was made governor of Jamaica and Kidd might well have been retrospectively declared pirate for political reasons, he certainly believed he was safe landing in Boston where he was arrested. We know about the famous ones, but vast numbers of pirates were never identified or caught.
 
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Since one of my Grail quests is designing the cheapest possible starships, best bang for buck was something I tackled.

A lot depends on how long you suspect that combat will last, one assumption being that if it's outbound, all you need is enough time to make that jump.

One (cheap) option are vertical launch cells, assuming you can find a set of consistent rules.

Essentially, firing off a salvo will likely overwhelm any default pirate ship's point defence.

And, if not used, you only pay for installation, and maintenance.
 
If a missile rack is a better anti piracy weapon or not really doesn’t enter into the equation no one is going to let a civilian vessel with missile racks anywhere near any population center and that includes Highports. Because of this alone merchant ships heck and civilian owned ship (without a starmerc lic) is going to be armed with missiles not if they ever want to land or dock. Can other weapons do damage of course they can but none of them can even approach the threshold of being a WMD at least not turret class weapons.
Can you cite an in-game reference to support this view or is this just YTU?

Traveller Companion simply lists them in the same legality class as pulse lasers (and submachine guns).

I wouldn't put too much stock on the definition of WMD, it varies politically depending on who the "enemy" of the day is.
 
True in general, but of course victims of piracy able to overcome their attacks could quite legitimately take the pirate ship as a prize (although there might be some rules about dividing it with possible legitimate owners).
Doesn't work very well. The merchant vessel typically has minimal crew, pirates carry extras whose only role is fighting the boarding action. They may carry extras to function as a "prize crew" and take the ship. The merchant vessel with minimal crew won't have the extras to take the pirate ship especially if both ships are damaged and in need of serious repairs and of course their own casualties. The ship needing serious repairs also isn't worth nearly as much if captured intact and likely the merchant owner won't have the money to repair both ships.

The merchant might also have to pay for missing the delivery after they limped back to port for repairs before they could jump to destination and for the cargo that was destroyed in the battle, raising their costs. Even a failed piracy could be bankrupting for the "successful" merchant defender.

The pirating of the Hyperion in the novel Triplanetary is still the optimum for a pirate to do. Works well for PC pirates also, if they pull it off.

Danger--more serious far in that it was not external--was even then, all unsuspected, gnawing at the great ship's vitals. In a locked and shielded compartment, deep down in the interior of the liner, was the great air purifier. Now a man leaned against the primary duct--the aorta through which flowed the stream of pure air supplying the entire vessel. This man, grotesque in full panoply of space armor, leaned against the duct, and as he leaned a drill bit deeper and deeper into the steel wall of the pipe. Soon it broke through, and the slight rush of air was stopped by the insertion of a tightly fitting rubber tube. The tube terminated in a heavy rubber balloon, which surrounded a frail glass bulb. The man stood tense, one hand holding before his silica-and-steel helmeted head a large pocket chronometer, the other lightly grasping the balloon. A sneering grin was upon his face as he awaited the exact second of action--the carefully pre-determined instant when his right hand, closing, would shatter the fragile flask and force its contents into the primary air stream of the _Hyperion_!
 
Ok. In that case why would they move to the range where you get all those DMs or can even attack at all? You won't get to fire as they will stay out of the way. Pulse (or missile) beats beam.
You can't board at long range.

As a pirate, unless you want to risk destroying everything you're trying to steal, you don't want to shoot unless you have to. So the quandary for the pirate is: shoot at medium range until you cripple the target (risky: you get no called shots)? Or don't shoot, and risk the substantial chance of the enemy taking you out of the fight with a single shot? It's not a theoretical issue of DMs: it's a practical issue of profit (and of not having the Imperium send out a flotilla to hunt you down, which the PoD Companion is very, very explicit is what will happen if you take that approach, really quite quickly).

The rest of your post assumes the worst possible roll for beams then the averages for missiles: this does seem like something of a concession!

Then you assume that the pirates attacked by missiles fail their point defence. This will happen one time in 36 at best. A mediocre gunner (skill 1, no dex DM) using a turret with 2 beams (leaving room for sand with the other) will make their point defence roll at a bonus of +6. That's with no fire control, no upgrades, no augmentations, no skill-chaining with the pilot and they are already automatically removing one missile even on the worst possible roll. Five times out of six they take out two of the three missiles. Roughly three times out of four they will take out all of the missiles. And that all

My assumption is that petty piracy is not attacking an armed ship. If you cant afford your payments you can't afford repairs either. If you have beam lasers then you can sell them to raise capital.
In which case great: they spot the laser turret and wisely sod off! No merchant will be able to stand up to Hroal Irontooth in the Meatgrinder, so the choice of turret is moot for the extreme example of "we just wandered out into the notorious Trojan Reach and hoped for the best".

Edit: I am, however, glad to see someone standing up for the missile as a weapon-system in MgT2, given that the common opinion is that they are all-but-worthless. In a scenario where the other side don't expect missiles and have no interceptor missiles, no ECCM and don't shoot the missiles out of the sky with multiple turrets, they can be dangerous!
 
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Doesn't work very well. The merchant vessel typically has minimal crew, pirates carry extras whose only role is fighting the boarding action. They may carry extras to function as a "prize crew" and take the ship. The merchant vessel with minimal crew won't have the extras to take the pirate ship especially if both ships are damaged and in need of serious repairs and of course their own casualties. The ship needing serious repairs also isn't worth nearly as much if captured intact and likely the merchant owner won't have the money to repair both ships.

The merchant might also have to pay for missing the delivery after they limped back to port for repairs before they could jump to destination and for the cargo that was destroyed in the battle, raising their costs. Even a failed piracy could be bankrupting for the "successful" merchant defender.

The pirating of the Hyperion in the novel Triplanetary is still the optimum for a pirate to do. Works well for PC pirates also, if they pull it off.
You misunderstand me. Your ship is only PRETENDING to have "merchant" as its main line of business. No doubt it does some merchant trading on the side, so as to appear more convincing. But you won't be able to make ends meet that way, since you have to pay for extra equipment, a largish crew with good combat skills, and maybe a few mercs for boarding operations. You'll have a bit less cargo, for security reasons you probably won't take passengers, you'll have bigger mortgage because of the weapons, sensors, maybe armour and extra M drive. There are more expenses since you need more crew, prize crews, and boarders. And your trade routes won't be optimized for trade income, but for getting to places where you can attract pirates that you think you can beat in a fight. Grabbing pirate ships, cashing bounties, and maybe seizing their cargoes - if any - is the real income stream. Pirates need sharper teeth than your typical merchant, so if you want to pirate pirates, you need sharper teeth yet again. It requires a bit of deception in port when an operation is kicking off - can't let anyone see the guns you've got stacked in your armoury, the outsized M-drive, or what's really in your turrets. Also can't have a bunch of ex-marines kicking around the highport wearing your ship patches. Seems like a good campaign to me: ship combat, boarding actions, intrigue, deception and a bit of trading on the side. Law and diplomacy to stay in business and cash in legtimately, maybe a bit of showmanship to be seen as heroes and not villains, but you could easily fall victim to your own success, as pirate clans seek to take you out, or just don't attack you anymore as you get too famous for this to work. Also, banks would probably find it too high risk to give a mortgage for, though other backing might be sought.

That said, an unarmed merchant unexpectedly beating a pirate and seizing their ship against the odds has been a thing in some space operas. You just can't design a business model based on getting incredibly lucky.
 
You can't board at long range.
Assuming boarding is necessary, and that you are willing to do it looking down the barrel of any weapon at all. I find it implausible that the desperate trader turned pirate you are citing is going to be equipped with specialist boarding equipment. They will need to rely on compliance and if that is happening then it doesn't matter what the defender is armed with, they had their chance to attack you before you got to boarding range.
As a pirate, unless you want to risk destroying everything you're trying to steal, you don't want to shoot unless you have to. So the quandary for the pirate is: shoot at medium range until you cripple the target (risky: you get no called shots)? Or don't shoot, and risk the substantial chance of the enemy taking you out of the fight with a single shot? It's not a theoretical issue of DMs: it's a practical issue of profit (and of not having the Imperium send out a flotilla to hunt you down, which the PoD Companion is very, very explicit is what will happen if you take that approach, really quite quickly).
Traditionally it has been strike your colours and surrender and shut down the power plant or we destroy you. If you comply a fast launch can be sent over with a boarding crew while the ship remains under the guns of the pirate standing off. You might destroy the launch (you can do that with a portable fusion gun) but it will seal your fate as the pirate will destroy you on principle.
The rest of your post assumes the worst possible roll for beams then the averages for missiles: this does seem like something of a concession!
Not really. I just don't conduct the fight where everything favours the beam weapon. Rolling 5 dice for damage is far more likely to result in something around the average than rolling a single dice. It's not just average damage to consider it's modal damage. That's just probability, the cahnce of you rolling minimum damage is 1 in 6, the chance of rolling minimum with 5 dice is 1 in over 7000. If you prefer we can say the beam weapon rolls average damage and gets 5.5+ effect. It might make 10% of a traders hull and cause a level 1 critical. It is unlikely to make 2 and it absolutely won't destroy the ship unless you get a 6+ critical and you need effect 8+ to cause the level 3 effect that spells instant disablement. If we say maximum damage 8+effect then you will get a sustained damage critical and likely a second one. I would get 30 and on a type A that would be 3 crits per missile at least and up to 11 crits total if all 3 hit.
Then you assume that the pirates attacked by missiles fail their point defence. This will happen one time in 36 at best. A mediocre gunner (skill 1, no dex DM) using a turret with 2 beams (leaving room for sand with the other) will make their point defence roll at a bonus of +6. That's with no fire control, no upgrades, no augmentations, no skill-chaining with the pilot and they are already automatically removing one missile even on the worst possible roll. Five times out of six they take out two of the three missiles. Roughly three times out of four they will take out all of the missiles. And that all
Regardless of the effectiveness of point defence you have still forfeited your attack for the turn. If I keep up the barrage as I try to evade that is 12 turns where you have no choice but to keep shooting down missiles rather than actually harm me. This frivolous waste of ammunition will cost me over MCr1 with advanced missiles, so the trader will need to decide if they can actually get away and whether it it is worth the cost. As they have no idea of the motivation or cruelty of the pirate that could be loss of all cargo, loss of the ship or spacing the entire crew.

This is only a factor if the pirate is armed with beam weapons. I would have assumed pulse lasers anyway. If they have gone for beams then I have even more time to escape you as you can't hurt me until you get to medium range. That could be hours. Why is a pirate optimising their weapons to point defence against an attack that you consider to be unlikley?
In which case great: they spot the laser turret and wisely sod off! No merchant will be able to stand up to Hroal Irontooth in the Meatgrinder, so the turret is moot for the extreme example of "we just wandered out into the notorious Trojan Reach and hoped for the best".
If they can stand off they might as well have a pop with their pulse laser if you didn't surrender and power off the plant as required. If they get the turret they can close and board, if they kill the plant they can close and board. It isn't the best outcome, but if you are that sort of pirate then maybe you don't care.

I prefer not to have that sort of pirate in my games as it makes it difficult to keep players alive. I want pirate encounters to be a challenge to overcome, not a succeed or the campaign is over proposition. In order of preference: 1) you run 2) you surrender (if the pirate is known and has a reputation of being merciful) or 3) you fight as a last resort.

If you choose 3 then you fight to the death as you have already assumed the pirate will not be merciful at option 2.
 
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It’s the fact that it takes time for the laser to do similar damage that make the laser not a WMD.
What is your definition of WMD? Mine for Traveller is a weapon system that can in and of itself destroy a city regardless of timescale. Note that there is as yet no internationally recognised meaning for the term.


Sigtrygg argument is a fallacy since he’s trying to redefine what a WMD is. A ship’beam laser does 1D6 *10 with a blast of 10, a heavy bombardment gun does 3D6 *10 with a blast area of 25, a heavy field gun does 1D6 * 10 with a AP of 8 blast of 15, none of those are MDCs.
Would you say blanket bombing is a weapon of mass destruction? That is what the term was first used to describe.
We don’t have stats for a nuclear warhead in atmospheres and yes it would do orders of magnitude more damage than in space.
We do in other editions, so conversion is possible.
A warhead with a load of concentrated hydrofluoric acid vaporized in air could wipe out a major city with one missile possibly multiple and there’s no real defense outside of extreme hostile environmental suits,
Absolute tosh, the amount of acid you would need would fill a tanker not a missile warhead.
it eats calcium and magnesium even through skin. I don’t even want to think what a bio weapon could do.
Are Bio weapons wmds by your defintion? They can take months...
No sane world is going to allow a merchant vessel with missile racks anywhere near a planet or really any other facilities.
In your opinion, yet you have blinkered yourself from accepting that a starship is in of itself a WMD, and a single ship scale laser is a WMD,
 
Who needs nukes from orbit when you have physics (i.e. rods from the gods) to do all the F=M*A? I think players are nuke happy when good ol kinetic energy strikes will be more than enough.

Rather than worry about people randomly nuking a city I'd think most planetary authorities would be far more worried about a broken down piece of junk (i.e a poorly maintained ship) falling out of orbit.
Rods from god have been thoroughly debunked. or maybe that's just what they are telling us... 🐙 🫥
 
If a missile rack is a better anti piracy weapon or not really doesn’t enter into the equation no one is going to let a civilian vessel with missile racks anywhere near any population center and that includes Highports.
In your opinion, an opinion that many people so far do not agree with for many reasons.
Because of this alone merchant ships heck and civilian owned ship (without a starmerc lic) is going to be armed with missiles not if they ever want to land or dock.
In your universe you can make it so. In the OTU and other referee's games it is up to them. personally I do not agree with your assertion for the reasons that have been explained by myself and others throughout the thread.
Can other weapons do damage of course they can but none of them can even approach the threshold of being a WMD at least not turret class weapons.
You are using a word that doesn't mean what you think it means. If I hover a ship over a city and use its single laser to destroy that city over the course of a week that is a weapon of mass destruction. We obviously disagree on the meaning of the term.

You want to ban civilian missiles and have a reason for doing so in univers. Great. It is your game, do it, But don't expect other people to say "oh my Tytalan is right I have been wrong for fifty years the OTU needs to be changed right now"

You are now repeating yourself and others have already provided the counterpoint.
 
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