Medicine in the Hyborian Age

[rabindranath72]

In the core AE book the closest reference to medicine I could find is in the Heal skill.
Since I am writing a BRP adaptation, I would like to introduce the Medicine skill, though not with the effect of modern medicine (somewhat like in Cthulhu Dark Ages). In Cthulhu Dark Ages for example arabs are said to be more proficient in medicine. Off the top of my head I would say that perhaps Khitai has more advanced medical techniques, based on corresponding real world China. Any suggestions/ideas on how effective would it be in the Hyborian Age? Do you see some countries/cultures more advanced?

Cheers,
Antonio

 

[The King]

Khitai and Stygia and may be Hyperborea (that is sorcery oriented nations which also study human bodies as their research fields).

 

[tarkhan bey]

I would also go for Turan, their aggressive foreign policy would probably lead to better battlefield medicine(wounds, concussion etc).
In the mid seventies,during the height of the "troubles" in Northern Ireland, the Royal Victoria Hospital was the world leader in advanced treatments for head injuries and brain damage.
Likewise, if the stories are true, superglue was invented during "Nam" for the quick suturing of wounds.

 

[kintire]

If you are going for this level of realism, you will want to distinguish between surgery and medicine (ie diseases). The Hyborians, as Western Europe analogues, will be excellent as surgeons, capable of pulling you through some terrible wounds, and appalling at medicine, to the point where going to a doctor is actually worse than doing nothing.

Turan will be similar. If they match their real world analouges they will be a little worse at surgery than the more advanced Hyborian nations like Aquilonia due to a taboo on human dissection. Khitai probably a bit worse at surgery but much better at medicine.

Of course, the nations need not match history, and as soon as you throw sorcery in the bets are off!

 

[Demetrio]

I'm not sure that medieval medicine was that bad (in terms of knowledge available in the west pre say 1400 AD). What is fair to say is that vast numbers of medical practitioners where ignorant of this available knowledge. But the better doctors had access to virtually all the knowledge available to contemporary Arab or Indian physicians.

 

[zozotroll]

Often you will hear about how midevil peasants almost never moved more than 20 miles from where they where born. Unfortunatly, that transfers to a thought pattern that nobody moved much.

Lots of people moved around a lot, and they where just as eager to learn new stuff as we are. Ideas where not confined to a specific location.

 

[rabindranath72]

thanks for the feedback guys!
I guess I will go with Khitan, Pelishtim (who are said to posses the secret of eternal youth) and Vendhyan having the better medical techniques.

 

[kintire]

I'm not sure that medieval medicine was that bad (in terms of knowledge available in the west pre say 1400 AD). What is fair to say is that vast numbers of medical practitioners where ignorant of this available knowledge. But the better doctors had access to virtually all the knowledge available to contemporary Arab or Indian physicians.

Arab, certainly: which didn't help at all, because they were just as bad. Western and Arabic medicine were both strongly influenced by Galen, who was at best wrong and at worst actively harmful. In particular, his balance of humours theory led to bleeding and purging, both of which strain and weaken the body, reducing its ability to resist the disease.

 

[Demetrio]

Sure, in certain cases intervention did make things worse. But I don't think it was always entirely fruitless or detrimental. And there was continuous progress in the field of medicine. And there was some decent knowledge. I mean it was known that deadly nightshade was a sometimes useful medicine for some ailments if taken in small quantities but lethal if taken in quantity. Or indeed the treatment of syphilis by using mercury (which may pre-date the Renaissance, opinions seem divided, nonetheless, Howard has some pretty Renaissance-like features in soe of his cultures so even if not, I think it's relevant).

There's also (and more importantly) a gaming issue. If you make medicine effectively useless, then players won't use it (they'll use that meta-game knowledge, almost always, to avoid harming their characters by seeking out a doctor). Better I think to make medicine reasonably effective but perhaps slightly chancy than to have it worse than useless - because by so doing you render physicians irrelevant to the players.

 

[zozotroll]

I have often wondered how much of the really detrimental stuff was done regularly. After all, there where some bright people trying this stuff, and they seem to have been observent.

If none of it worked, why would anybody keep using it? I dont mean the Docs, but the people. After all if uncle george went, spenmt most of his small amount of money, and died anyway, why waste your small amount of money?

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I wouldnt use real world analogy to fill out the gaps. Regarldless of whether one historical culture or another was perceived as more advanced, the truth is, it was all caked in mumbo-jumbo. Better life expectancy was merely an indirect result of stability (i.e., less fatalities), and perhaps, better diet in more ancient cultures. No matter where you lived, the best defence against death was not to get sick in the first place.

Ancient cultures had no idea about the prime causes of sickness or disease. It was only during the renaissance where all of the mysticism began to be stripped away and medicine began the long hard slog towards real beneficial knowledge. The mystical approach relied upon belief, something which was harmful to realworld medicine, but is integral to somewhere such as the Hyborian Age, because in the Hyborian Age, magic, demons and gods exist.

So, I would say, the advanced Western kingdoms would be more amenable to personal survival, partly because of the stability of the culture, and the fact that it wouldnt be steeped in ancient ritual. A place like Tarantia may be further advanced than Khitai, for instance.

 

[Demetrio]

Ancient cultures had no idea about the prime causes of sickness or disease

This isn't strictly true. For instance, the Arabs knew how TB could be transmitted. Granted, they are not strictly speaking an ancient culture, but they're relevant to the Hyborian Age. And hygiene was recognised as being important in the prevention of the spread of infection by many ancient cultures.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

This isn't strictly true. For instance, the Arabs knew how TB could be transmitted.

Yet such things as leprosy remained a righteous curse from Allah...

 

[kintire]

Yet such things as leprosy remained a righteous curse from Allah...

To be fair, that probably did very little harm. After all, it's not like they could have done anything about it, even if they had known it had natural causes!

I have often wondered how much of the really detrimental stuff was done regularly. After all, there where some bright people trying this stuff, and they seem to have been observent.

If none of it worked, why would anybody keep using it? I dont mean the Docs, but the people. After all if uncle george went, spenmt most of his small amount of money, and died anyway, why waste your small amount of money?

People with a small amount of money didn't. Doctors were expensive professionals: the poor went to local village healers (who were probably just as effective). As for why people kept doing it, well they had no basis for comparison. You might as well ask why people go to homeopaths, acupuncturists and Hopi ear candlers today. Ancient people had much more excuse!

There's also (and more importantly) a gaming issue. If you make medicine effectively useless, then players won't use it

I'm answering the question in the OP not recommending it for full adoption in the game. I don't think it would be a good idea to do that to the medicine skill either, but if you want a playable reflection of reality, there is a very strong case for making Hyborian kingdoms less skillful at medicine (but more skillful at surgery by a good way, which is the branch of the Heal skill most PCs will encounter!)

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

To be fair, that probably did very little harm. After all, it's not like they could have done anything about it, even if they had known it had natural causes!

Just pointing out the wooly thinking of even the most advanced Medieval medicinal practices.

Chirurgery was an art practiced in the West which was seen as a feminine pursuit, or, at least, one not worthy of the higher classes. Theres a whole load of social and belief system issues with the history of medicine and surgery. Thats why I wouldnt necessarily use it as a model for the Hyborian Kingdoms.

It somehow demeans the fantasy to accept that disease is spread by bacteria, or that genetics has an influence upon potential. I think its a rocky road of mundanity that does little good to a fantasy campaign. IMHO.

 

[kintire]

It somehow demeans the fantasy to accept that disease is spread by bacteria, or that genetics has an influence upon potential. I think its a rocky road of mundanity that does little good to a fantasy campaign. IMHO.

Fantasy generally varies, of course, but certainly the idea that genetics has an influence on potential fits very well into Conan. Of course, Howard talks more about race and culture as is more Lamarckian than Darwinian, but the idea that races and peoples have their own hereditary potential is right there.

 

[bradius]

Two good references for medicine in past times are:

Hildegard of Bingen's Medicine. This would be a good reference for Aquilonia and other 'Dark Ages European" cultures.

The Healing Hand, by Guido Manjo deals with the healing of traumatic injuries from the dawn of man through the Middle Ages, and a variety of cultures.

A good book on herbs would be a worthwhile reference for (obviously) herbal remedies. Many of these have been around for centuries.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Hey guys, tonight we had a sudden flash that we ought to have a physician in the group, or maybe rather barber-surgeon.

The actual (and effective) healing in our group is done by the Temptress, but on the other hand we could imagine a character who is more of a butcher than a doctor, applies tried-and-proven cures like leeches or cupping for every ailment from the common cold to broken bones, and sports tooth-pliers and bonesaw to offer his services to any commoners whose way the party might cross.

That would go well with the concept of "phantom skills", i.e. a skill that your character _thinks_ he's good at (while in fact being rather inept).

Oh well, maybe for a one-shot some time. ^^

 

[Hervé]

In my campaign Turan and Stygia (and probably Kithai too, though we've never been there) have a higher level in medecine than the average Hyborian kingdom, Aquilonia included... I don't pretend to be historically accurate but I don't care much, as the Hyborian Age doesn't belong to history anyway!

 

[rabindranath72]

Hey guys, tonight we had a sudden flash that we ought to have a physician in the group, or maybe rather barber-surgeon.

The actual (and effective) healing in our group is done by the Temptress, but on the other hand we could imagine a character who is more of a butcher than a doctor, applies tried-and-proven cures like leeches or cupping for every ailment from the common cold to broken bones, and sports tooth-pliers and bonesaw to offer his services to any commoners whose way the party might cross.

That would go well with the concept of "phantom skills", i.e. a skill that your character _thinks_ he's good at (while in fact being rather inept).

Oh well, maybe for a one-shot some time. ^^

Nice :lol:
On a similar note, one of the players in my group is a sorcerer who says he is proficient in venomancy and can discern the future in the way poisoned people die. It worked nice in the game since the other players do not know it's a scam!