Max skill ranks

[ShawnDriscoll]

I don't compare my Traveller careers to real-life ones.

 

[CosmicGamer]

How many more times a week do you play? How many weeks of training happen in a session for you guys? I'm asking because clearly we play way different to everyone else here. Do your players often spend weeks at a time between jobs training?

Currently only playing Traveller via PbP. Never had my characters in a Traveller PbP gain skills. As GM, I had lost some players and recruited for more. The game "rebooted" after a maybe a 9 month skip forward in game time and I gave the players that stuck with the game an opportunity to gain skills during that time.

The gaming group I play with in person switches between games and is not currently playing Traveller, though there are plans to wind down the current game and start up another Traveller game.

How many more times a week do you play?
We play in person one day every other week. Maybe 8 hours per session so about 16 hours of real world time per month.

How much training happens in a session?
We could have a game session where something interesting is happening and time in game progresses at about the rate of real time with one day taking multiple game sessions, about a month of real time with no training in game. And we could have a game session where we skip through traveling multiple jumps, several months of game time in minutes, because the next adventure is at a distant destination.

Do your players often spend weeks at a time between jobs training?
Do you mean characters?
Sometimes yes, weeks of game time, minutes of real time. In one game we were in service to the government and there were times that the government sent us for training based on the next mission. We did not get to pick and choose ourselves.

 

[-Daniel-]

I'm 41 myself, I've spent most of my working life in IT, but recently moved into management, specifically working as a Scrum Master (world's most pretentious job title I know). My formal training was a two day course. Everything else I'm learning through experience on the job. Spending months training to learn new skills or improve existing ones simply is not realistic as the sole method of advancement.

I have seen lots of examples like yours. Personally I learned to drive an 18 wheeler by being given the keys and being told to go pick up a load out in Riverside (about 70 miles away). I stopped tearing up the gears by the time I made it there. :lol:

My only worry about trying to mirror real life is the fact we have very vague skills that really reflect many skills. Is being a Sourcing Specialist (one of my real life roles) a single skill or a set of about fifteen skills mixed together to do that role? Real life? the 15 skills, but in Traveller it is reduced to a single skill, Profession.

I know we are all trying to find a system that makes sense, but I would really suggest we resist the trap of trying to reflect reality.

 

[-Daniel-]

How much training happens in a session?
We could have a game session where something interesting is happening and time in game progresses at about the rate of real time with one day taking multiple game sessions, about a month of real time with no training in game. And we could have a game session where we skip through traveling multiple jumps, several months of game time in minutes, because the next adventure is at a distant destination.

This would describe most of the games I have ever played. Time flows different from session to session based on what we are trying to do. 8)

 

[Major Tom]

I know we are all trying to find a system that makes sense, but I would really suggest we resist the trap of trying to reflect reality.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Traveller should try to fully reflect reality, just that it takes a nod in that general direction and recognises that formal learning isn't the only way to advance skills. An updated version of MegaTravller's AT system (points are accumulated against an individual skill via observation or practice and act as a DM on a pretty challenging INT roll to learn or advance the skill) would, I suspect, sate most of us. It doesn't have to be an instant gratification sweeties for everyone at the end of each session thing (that was TNE's XP system, which allowed you to improve skills mid-scene). I genuinely cannot see what MT2 would loose from that and it removes a barrier to GM & player buy-in.

 

[-Daniel-]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Traveller should try to fully reflect reality, just that it takes a nod in that general direction and recognises that formal learning isn't the only way to advance skills. An updated version of MegaTravller's AT system (points are accumulated against an individual skill via observation or practice and act as a DM on a pretty challenging INT roll to learn or advance the skill) would, I suspect, sate most of us.

I would have to go back and find the thread where we discussed this sort of idea. Track the natural 12s rolled, track the number of Exceptional Success, there was even the flirting with some sort of XP idea. But the appetite for such an idea didn't seem to be there.

I like the idea that you increase your level in the skills you are using. I do not mind this sort of thinking at all. Study, experience, practice, listening and watching others (teachers or mentors) all mix into the learning equation. I agree 100% with you. But right now I don't get the feeling the beta is open to a full redesign in the training area.

 

[Garran]

I like the idea that you increase your level in the skills you are using. I do not mind this sort of thinking at all. Study, experience, practice, listening and watching others (teachers or mentors) all mix into the learning equation. I agree 100% with you. But right now I don't get the feeling the beta is open to a full redesign in the training area.

On a more general level it would make sense to count weeks spent actively doing something during travel toward the training time (Piloting the ship, the Steward taking care of passengers, etc) as long as the player actually wanted to see a skill increase in that area. (I suppose it could be counted anyway - nothing forces you to make the check if you don't want the increase.)

 

[Kaelic]

To make the assumption that because I disagree with you makes me "just" a Traveller fan is condescending.

Sorry, but I didn't say "just" at all. I'm saying we've all here (yes including me) already buy into Traveller, that's why we played it before! And we will continue to do so. I'm talking about people who are coming to Traveller from pretty much any other major RPG.

What I want to express is I disagree with you not for a lack of experience in other RPGs. I disagree with you because you want something that does not fit into this version of Traveller as written. A Traveller character should not receive skills at the rate you seem to want/need for your game. It will break the game mechanics in other areas.

What rate is that? Do you know what rate I want them? I want Travellers to gain skills based on the narrative, not based on time personally. It's more interesting to gain skills after saving a space princess from the evil space pirates. It's less interesting to trade on dice tables for 40 weeks and roll for free skills.

You want rapid leveling up, the total game mechanics need to support it.

Pretty much has never been my suggestion. The whole idea of "rapid leveling up" is ignorant to what I've been saying dude. If we use this current system, my players can use the money they have to just train for 5 years of game time in a single session if they want. That's rapid leveling, and boring as shit.

I really do not think we will ever find a training mechanic/rate that will please everyone.

I disagree.

 

[Kaelic]

I agree 100% with you. But right now I don't get the feeling the beta is open to a full redesign in the training area.

The training area is a paragraph. Hardly a complicated system to "redesign".

 

[-Daniel-]

If we use this current system, my players can use the money they have to just train for 5 years of game time in a single session if they want. That's rapid leveling, and boring as ****.

Yes, and any GM who allowed that to happen deserves to be bored with it. I am not going to argue that any system presented couldn't be twisted. Of course they could. Of course the GM would have to help bring any rule system to life on the table.

I really do not think we will ever find a training mechanic/rate that will please everyone.

I disagree.

And that is your right. I would love to read a suggestion from you that would please everyone that has joined into this debate for the last few weeks. Any suggestion that covers all the various people and their views of this would be wonderful.

But right now I don't get the feeling the beta is open to a full redesign in the training area.

The training area is a paragraph. Hardly a complicated system to "redesign".

The Training is more than a paragraph. It is a paragraph that attempts to come closer to the pace of the career generation system. If you make the training faster than it is out of sync with the pace of the career system. That is the focus of many to of the complaints for the original offering, the one week system found in the first beta document. So in order to speed up the training system and have it reflect the career path generation, you would then need to address the career path system as well. And that is a lot more than just a re-write of a single paragraph.

But as I said, I am very interested in seeing your suggestions for a solution that meets all the different competing interests. 8)

 

[Kaelic]

But as I said, I am very interested in seeing your suggestions for a solution that meets all the different competing interests. 8)

There have been very good suggestions of directions for the actual designers to take and consider. If I were to fully design something, I'd sell it myself and not give it away for free. I also have a professional career designing games, and I'm on here to give feedback not free consultation

For my own game sessions I'll probably just take what Major Tom is suggesting from the older Traveller book, seems flexible enough. Which I think the key feature to please everyone.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

For my own game sessions I'll probably just take what Major Tom is suggesting from the older Traveller book, seems flexible enough. Which I think the key feature to please everyone.

Not all playtesters make the jump from home-brewing rules to replace ones they don't like, to having their rules published in a core rulebook so they don't have to home-brew.

 

[-Daniel-]

For my own game sessions I'll probably just take what Major Tom is suggesting from the older Traveller book, seems flexible enough. Which I think the key feature to please everyone.

Simple and Flexible is always a good thing. Add in Clearly written and I am really happy. 8)

 

[Major Tom]

For my own game sessions I'll probably just take what Major Tom is suggesting from the older Traveller book, seems flexible enough. Which I think the key feature to please everyone.

Simple and Flexible is always a good thing. Add in Clearly written and I am really happy. 8)

Ok, I can make a try for simple, flexible and clearly written:

Learning Through Experience

The GM can award Advancemnt Points (AP) for a skill in play where he feels that a character could have learned something through experience or observation. A character can have up to three AP on any given skill. A player may improve any of his character's skills that have AP. To do so he makes an INT check with the following difficulties:

Gane a new skill at 0: Formidable
Increase a skill from 0 to 1: Difficult
Increase a skill from 1 to 2: Very Difficult
Increase a skill from 2 to 3: Very Difficult
Increase a skill from 3 to 4: Formidable
Increase a skill from 4 to 5: Formidable

The APs associated with the skill are applied to the roll as a DM and are removed regardless of the roll's success or failure.

I'm sure that can be picked apart as it's back of a fag packet maths, but it is a starting point for debate.

 

[Kaelic]

Presumably they can only attempt an improvement upon receiving an AP. I quite like it, simple and easy and flexible. Hell if people want to keep traditional training, they can just award AP for the 24 weeks of training sessions, while I can award it for completing a major plot point or doing an exceptional action in play. Everyone wins!

 

[Major Tom]

That's the idea. I've updated the original post to clarify it a bit.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Where is the list of things that generate a AP? Why can't you provide some guidance so that players and GMs, especially new ones don't have to figure everything out on their own?

Just playing devils advocate for a moment as I was the one who gave the most flexible system: GM and game group just role play it and do what they feel works for their group.

Flexible for some is not enough guidance. I can understand that. The more flexible the system, the more argument there will be over the different way's something can possibly be done. Some GM's want a clear system to use so that they don't have to work this out on their own or spend game time discussing and creating rules.

Others will disagree with any hard rule you create.
Why is that a formidable task? Why INT instead of EDU?

So personally I don't think anyone can come up with a training system that will please EVERYONE. Thinking you can probably means you have blinders on and are disregarding what some people want.

 

[Kaelic]

To be honest, this is for msprange to go away and design, not to be hashed out in detail here. The approach is right, the details need designing.

Sure you can't "please everyone" which is an imaginary concept. However this approach would address most of the criticism levied against the system at the moment on this forum.

 

[Major Tom]

So personally I don't think anyone can come up with a training system that will please EVERYONE. Thinking you can probably means you have blinders on and are disregarding what some people want.

I'm not trying to come up with something that will please everyone, just an updated version of Megatraveller's old AP system that is simple, flexible and clearly written. I used INT for two reasons, Megatraveller did and it differentiates learning by experience from formal tutoring. The difficulties are, as I said in the original post, based on back of a fag packet maths. Conceptually it should be tough to learn a new skill by obsovation & trying it, easier to improve when you have a basic knowledge and bloody hard to perfect a skill. Your mileage may vary.

In the end it's an entirely academic excercise intended to show what can be done.

 

[-Daniel-]

To be honest, this is for msprange to go away and design, not to be hashed out in detail here. The approach is right, the details need designing.

I agree, Major Tom has offered a clear alternative path that detaches the time element from the mechanic allowing each GM to award the points at the pace they deemed best for their table. It is now Matt's call on if he wants to change things along this kind of path or not.