Max skill ranks

[MongooseMatt]

You can see my complaint as someone who tends to play games with 0-2 Jumps per session. Even at 6 jumps per session, which seems like a lot to me, you're taking 3 real-life months to get a Rank 0 skill.

I certainly recognise the issues - and part of the problem is very much that I don't actually think Traveller should have this kind of system (I recognise that is very much my problem ).

We also need 'one size fits all' for this kind of rule - so, while some skills (Gun Combat) need less training, others need more (Astrogation).

I am more than happy to change the values of the length of the Study Period or the EDU check needed. On the other hand, I don't really want to change the importance of EDU - a quick look around the middle-aged people I know demonstrates the value of a higher EDU when it comes to learning new stuff later on...

Open to suggestions on this!

 

[-Daniel-]

I certainly recognise the issues - and part of the problem is very much that I don't actually think Traveller should have this kind of system (I recognise that is very much my problem ).

This is not just your problem. Traveller is not designed for a fast leveling style progression. There are a lot of oddities that come out and inconsistencies when you try to allow characters to gain lots of zero level skills in a short time. Add to that the issue of not counting zero level skills in the max total of skills known and it opens the door to some very strange situations. Characters that in a few months of real game time that earn more skills then they did in 12 years of career generation?

One of the reasons I have liked the "leave it to the GM to set the pace" systems is it allows the GM to do what fits their table. If I want my characters to gain level 3 skills in a few weeks of play, then they do. I just hand them out.

As for adjustments, I could see a lowering of the target number down to routine or even easy, to reflect less their struggle to learn and more the possibility they just had too much going on to absorb what they were studying. If someone really spends 5 days a week, 8 hours a day in study, it is real hard for me to accept they learned nothing after 24 weeks.

I could also see offering a bonus if the person does spend 7 days a week in study. I would never has assumed 7 days a week myself, but then I have had how many years of schooling to train me to think in a "5 day a week" education system. 20 years worth? :wink:

I would also think differently about the present offering if I know what other options you are thinking of adding to the companion book. I like the idea of a reward system for a character that attempts successfully to use the skill they want. for example. Or we add some tech at TL 15 or cutting edge Tl16 where they spend a particular amount of time in a "learning" pod. Maybe they can only do so much per year or they lower their stats for example.

I also realize we have already added in the ability to augment the character with a system that allows them to use skills they do not have, and this is like an almost instant skill add-on.

So bottom line for me would be, leave this one in with a minor adjustment down for the EDU skill roll target, and in my opinion lets include a few other options in the companion including much faster rates of growth options. I also would still call for zero level skills to count as a half level (,5)in the character maximum.

Just my .02

 

[Garran]

Open to suggestions on this!

The system links learning to in-game time, which is reasonable from a thematic standpoint but presents us with the practical gameplay problem that in-game time is going to pass at rates that vary wildly from group to group and even from scenario to scenario. (One that takes place entirely planetside may last for months/years of RL time with no more than a few in-game days passing, while something involving long-distance travel will be the opposite.)

Yes, I know it's liable to be seen as heresy, but switching the system over to something based on the number of sessions played would largely solve the problem.

As for EDU, there's a similar thematic/practical issue going on there. Giving a cumulative +DM to subsequent EDU checks for each unsuccessful attempt and/or greatly reducing the time required for each subsequent attempt would mitigate the unfriendly dice problem. EDU would still matter, but it wouldn't outweigh everything else.

 

[-Daniel-]

Yes, I know it's liable to be seen as heresy, but switching the system over to something based on the number of sessions played would largely solve the problem.

While I see what you are trying to do, I find it even harder to live with then the one in the beta right now. We have already had one person say his game went on for months and was only a few days in game time. So the characters in that game would earn new skills in hours or even minutes?

I think you are right when you said the key issue is the attempt to tie it to game time. But I do not think the answer is to tie it to "real world game time" either.

 

[Kaelic]

Yes, I know it's liable to be seen as heresy, but switching the system over to something based on the number of sessions played would largely solve the problem.

While I see what you are trying to do, I find it even harder to live with then the one in the beta right now. We have already had one person say his game went on for months and was only a few days in game time. So the characters in that game would earn new skills in hours or even minutes?

I think you are right when you said the key issue is the attempt to tie it to game time. But I do not think the answer is to tie it to "real world game time" either.

Who cares? I want my players to be special and gain skills. They are PLAYERS at the end of the day. They don't want to play the game for 6 months real-life and see no progress in their characters. It's my choice to run that kind of campaign, make it my choice to award them skill training how I see fit. That is the kind of system we need.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Who cares? I want my players to be special and gain skills. They are PLAYERS at the end of the day. They don't want to play the game for 6 months real-life and see no progress in their characters. It's my choice to run that kind of campaign, make it my choice to award them skill training how I see fit. That is the kind of system we need.

I would say the current system is easy to tweak (either by Study Period or EDU checks). Given that the system you are looking for is not going to work for many people, I would suggest you are a special case here and free to modify things in your campaign - but it is not something I would be recommending as a default.

 

[Kaelic]

So it seems. It's a shame, I think if you had a broader audience in the playtest (as opposed to Traveller fans who will buy this book regardless) you'd see it from my perspective. Most of my players are from Shadowrun, D&D and the like.

 

[Kaelic]

Oh and I don't find the current training flexible at all. If I have to house-rule it, I'd have to make something from scratch. The EDU obsession is mind-boggling for a game. Half the classes or skill-sets in just about every other RPG would totally fail to work or progress if they obsessed over a single stat to define how you progressed.

Imagine Shadowrun (if anyone around here actually plays other systems) where at the end of a session, you award Karma, 10 Karma for everyone! Except you Billy, because your character is dumb. You get 2 Karma.

Oh well, can't fight with an echo chamber. I give up this debate on training

 

[MongooseMatt]

I do sympathise, I really do. But I don't think Traveller is a natural fit for that kind of character progression. And I am not sure there is a huge issue with making a system where dumb people find it harder to learn...

That said, I am all over the idea of alternative training methods/character progression for the Companion, so please feel free to bug the hell out of me over it when that starts rolling!

 

[Kaelic]

I guess I'm just not sure why the core has a training system at all, when it will take 3-months of real-life play time if you're doing 6 jumps a session (which seems a lot IMO) and 1 session a week. A Rank 0 skill you can buy on a chip in a few minutes at a software shop.

How many more times a week do you play? How many weeks of training happen in a session for you guys? I'm asking because clearly we play way different to everyone else here. Do your players often spend weeks at a time between jobs training?

 

[CosmicGamer]

I guess I'm just not sure why the core has a training system at all

I agree that training, and/or "leveling up" is a section of the rules that probably should be addressed in detail elsewhere.

So it seems. It's a shame, I think if you had a broader audience in the playtest (as opposed to Traveller fans who will buy this book regardless) you'd see it from my perspective. Most of my players are from Shadowrun, D&D and the like.

Traveller is different and for many people it is these differences that make the game. Sci Fi instead of fantasy. Characters that are older and have experience and skills already. How fast do high level D&D characters advance?

That said, nothing in the rules, including the skill improvement, should deter people from these other systems from enjoying Traveller. To me, the GM needs to assess themselves and their players to produce a game they all will enjoy. Perhaps more detailed information for the newbie GM and how to introduce people from other game systems to Traveller will be covered more in Starter Traveller?

Here are just a few suggestions for now

Timing of the game
Plan the game accordingly. If you know you have the type of players that need to see some kind of stat sheet character improvement via skill gains, plan the game appropriately.
- Don't have a scenario where the campaign takes 1 year of real time to play out two weeks in game time.
- Make the game episodic so that there are quantities of not played out game time between every few game sessions. Time for skill improvement.

The ship is the main character
In a Traveller game, often the ship is the center of things and being able to improve the ship gives a similar feeling to improving a character.

Other Rewards
IC Rewards
IC = In character.
Money is not uncommon as a reward. Unlike the leveling system in many games, money gives the player the opportunity to improve the things that matter most to them. Characters can buy things to improve their characteristics, skills, armor and weapons and so on. They also can buy improvements for their ship. Hire NPCs.

Other possibilities are IC rewards of high tech items, ancient and alien technology, a ship of their own and so on.

OOC Rewards
OOC = Out of character.
Not in the rules as written, but easily added, periodically players could be given a chip that can be used to affect game mechanics. Numerous ways the chips could work, but allowing a DM to a roll, automatic success of a roll, or a re roll of a failed task are likely possibilities.

Goals
The GM should help players feel like their characters are accomplishing things. For some players, their characters reaching goals feels better than a token skill gain "just because".

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

It's my choice to run that kind of campaign, make it my choice to award them skill training how I see fit. That is the kind of system we need.

So run that kind of campaign. No one is stopping you.

 

[Major Tom]

It's my choice to run that kind of campaign, make it my choice to award them skill training how I see fit. That is the kind of system we need.

So run that kind of campaign. No one is stopping you.

Problem with that is the rules don't support it so you have to come up with it yourself, which to most people is a pain in the backside so Traveler goes back on the shelf and another sci-fi game with a rule set that does is purchased instead. Would it really be so bad to have something like Megatravler's AT system or TNE's per session experience system? The direction that this edition seems to be headed seems to be firmly late 70s to early 80s retro. To me that's a shame, but it seems like those of us who feel that way will just get shouted down by those who are either invested due to involvement or determined Travler should never change into a modern, accessible system.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Problem with that is the rules don't support it so you have to come up with it yourself, which to most people is a pain in the backside so Traveler goes back on the shelf and another sci-fi game with a rule set that does is purchased instead.

So you're saying that referees can handle any situation that comes up in a game. But give up when it comes to letting players level up? What kind of game are you playing anyway with Traveller? An arcing campaign with zero to hero players? Or are you playing Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica or Aliens?

And yes, Mongoose Traveller is famous for sticking to the 1105 look and feel era.

 

[Major Tom]

So you're saying that referees can handle any situation that comes up in a game. But give up when it comes to letting players level up? What kind of game are you playing anyway with Traveller? An arcing campaign with zero to hero players? Or are you playing Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica or Aliens?

I'm saying that the lack of what is these days considered a complete system puts people off buying and playing Traveler. I'm sorry if that's not a popular point to make around here, but it's a thing that I've seen time and time again.

As for what I'm doing with Traveller, right now I'm not. I'd love to, the people I play with would much rather play Star Wars, Firefly, Doctor Who or Eclypse|Phase. Hell, I have an easier time getting players for SLA Industries than Traveller. If I was running something it'd be either 2300 or a Shattered Imperium/New Era game. I happen to think that the Shattered Imperium is one of the most interesting settings in Sci-Fi role playing and would love to see it brought to the fore in a new edition of Traveller that brings the setting and the system up to date. Sadly I'm in a minority around here, and have derailed the topic.

So, given that both MT and TNE had proper experience based progression, why would MT2 having one be the end of days?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I'm saying that the lack of what is these days considered a complete system puts people off buying and playing Traveler. I'm sorry if that's not a popular point to make around here, but it's a thing that I've seen time and time again.

That's too bad. I myself have not seen that sort of thing happen.

 

[-Daniel-]

So it seems. It's a shame, I think if you had a broader audience in the playtest (as opposed to Traveller fans who will buy this book regardless) you'd see it from my perspective. Most of my players are from Shadowrun, D&D and the like.

Imagine Shadowrun (if anyone around here actually plays other systems) where at the end of a session, you award Karma, 10 Karma for everyone! Except you Billy, because your character is dumb. You get 2 Karma.

Oh well, can't fight with an echo chamber. I give up this debate on training

To make the assumption that because I disagree with you makes me "just" a Traveller fan is condescending. I and my friends have played both games on your list and lots more. And for most of them, many editions. Shadowrun, D&D, AD&D, Twilight 2000, Cyberpunk, Morrow Project, just to name a few. Many different games with many different mechanics and thus many different character generation and reward systems. Some allowed you to just hardwire in skills. Heck Shadowrun allowed me to wire my body and then just "load in" skills I might need on that one run then "unload" them to make room for a different skill. Wonderful fun. But I would not suggest this for Traveller, as written. Maybe for a cyberpunk setting sourcebook though.

What I want to express is I disagree with you not for a lack of experience in other RPGs. I disagree with you because you want something that does not fit into this version of Traveller as written. A Traveller character should not receive skills at the rate you seem to want/need for your game. It will break the game mechanics in other areas. The Traveller reward system uses treasure in the form of money and new "shinny" equipment.

You want rapid leveling up, the total game mechanics need to support it. Might I suggest as an alternative Sine Nomine Publishing's Stars Without Number. It is a wonderful Scifi game with a D&D like leveling mechanic built in. Lots of fun to run. If you want a more "post apocalyptic" game, check out their Other Dust setting.

I really do not think we will ever find a training mechanic/rate that will please everyone. I do believe, in the end, this will become an area where each GM will have to tinker to get it to fit their table. This is really not a bad thing or good thing, it is just a reality thing. What I do believe 100% though is the pace you are asking for is not the correct one at all.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

So the play-testers that want Traveller to be a leveling-up system like D&D also want to keep Traveller's chargen rather that start playing their Traveller at age 18?

 

[theodis]

Just to let you all know, the Training section has been re-written for the next revision;

[...]

...and it was good. :wink:

 

[Major Tom]

So the play-testers that want Traveller to be a leveling-up system like D&D also want to keep Traveller's chargen rather that start playing their Traveller at age 18?

To traduce the views of those who want an advancement system as wanting a discount D&D levelling system is insulting, especially from someone who has obviously played games with proper set-ups rather than the primitive rubbish D20 offers. You can have both a career path system and individual ability based advancement (Mutant Chronicles does so for example).

I'm 41 myself, I've spent most of my working life in IT, but recently moved into management, specifically working as a Scrum Master (world's most pretentious job title I know). My formaltraining was a two day course. Everything else I'm learning through experience on the job. Spending months training to learn new skills or improve existing ones simply is not realistic as the sole method of advancement. Even previous versions of Traveller recognised this and it didn't stop them having a career path system.