Max skill ranks

[NOLATrav]

The new rules for learning new/improving existing skills are a lot less stingy than older versions - which is good - but may have gone too far the other way. The beta rules still state that "level 3 represents years of study, level 4 is a famous doctor" (sorry, poor paraphrasing but...) then it takes three weeks of study in a tramp trader to raise my skill from 2 to 3?

Perhaps that should be months per level, not weeks?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I agree with NOLATraveller. It only takes a week to get to roll for Level-0 and Level-1 skills, but during character creation you only earn about 2-3 skills per term, which is less than one skill per year. Using this new learning system, a Traveller could learn 50ish skill levels per YEAR. WAY too easy.

I have actually done some research on learning and it take a person about 10,000 hours of practice to become an expert in something. That is 5 years at 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Convert that to about Level-4 skills. So, it should take about a year to learn a level of a skill, which goes back to about what you can learn in Character Creation.

I suggest that you roll once every 1,000 hours of training (about 6 months at full-time). But, let them accumulate hours a few at a time, so an hour here, an hour there, 40 hours per jump etc. all counts. YES, it is a LOT slower and a lot more cumbersome to track, but it is also BALANCED with the rest of the game.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Comment on Max Skill Ranks.

3x(INT+EDU) is WAY too high. Original CT used (INT+EDU) which is too low with the increased number of skills in MGT2.

At 3x, it will take about 12 terms to max out on skill ranks.
At 1x, it takes about 4 terms to max out.

I suggest 2x(INT+EDU) as a nice balance. It would take about 8-9 terms for an average Traveller to max out; which is more terms than just about any Traveller is going to go, but provides an upper limit that is actually a Limit in play. Only a min-maxer using Anagathics is going to stay in for 12+ terms, which makes the max rank rule useless most of the time.

I don't know where they got the 3x rule, but I believe 2x makes a better, more balanced limit on skill ranks.

 

[AndrewW]

I don't know where they got the 3x rule, but I believe 2x makes a better, more balanced limit on skill ranks.

After a lot of discussion.

 

[-Daniel-]

I don't know where they got the 3x rule, but I believe 2x makes a better, more balanced limit on skill ranks.

After a lot of discussion.

Is it still open for discussion? I know with the cap not counting the zero level skills I would like to see it lowered to 2(INT+EDU) as well.

Now if we agree to count zero level skills as 1 "level" then the 3(INT+EDU) might make more sense.

 

[AndrewW]

Is it still open for discussion? I know with the cap not counting the zero level skills I would like to see it lowered to 2(INT+EDU) as well.

Anything is still open for discussion, that's what this section of the forum is for. Doesn't mean it will change, but things are still open to change.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I actually like the idea of Zero Level skills not counting. As an "older" person myself, I know that some of my skill levels have dropped (go ahead, help your college age son with Calculus)... so a very old character could drop down skills to level 0 (haven't used them in a long time, but I know something about them..) so that makes sense to me and for a REALLY old character there would be those things he works with every day now and those things from a century ago that when someone mentions it, his mind goes "Oh Yeah, I know that!".

A Traveller enters the Noble career from a TL-15 world. Anagathics should be a given (even in the 3I setting). Take away ageing issues and what prevents the Traveller from staying in the character generation forever? Maxing out on Skills. At 3x(INT+EDU) that will take 15 terms (or more depending on abilities), but if you max him out at about 12 terms, then you have a good reason for them going out into the big bad universe - they hit their intellectual wall.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Now if we agree to count zero level skills as 1 "level" then the 3(INT+EDU) might make more sense.

Compromise and have them count as 1/2?

 

[-Daniel-]

Now if we agree to count zero level skills as 1 "level" then the 3(INT+EDU) might make more sense.

Compromise and have them count as 1/2?

I would be good with that. Zero = .5 at least brings the zero skills into the cap conversation.

 

[vladthemad]

If 0 level skills count as 1 against the max level of skills obtainable, players will be less likely to try to gain skills that might not serve any purpose for their particular group, and may discuss it more with each other about who should focus where. They will also be more inclined to increase a skill from 0 to 1 (and probably on up). I'd be fine with that, although the speed at which this can be done definitely needs to be tweaked.

 

[Jacqual]

Is it still open for discussion? I know with the cap not counting the zero level skills I would like to see it lowered to 2(INT+EDU) as well.

Anything is still open for discussion, that's what this section of the forum is for. Doesn't mean it will change, but things are still open to change.

From what I have been reading here, I also believe it should be 2x (Int + Edu) for maximum skill levels. I also believe that the 0 level skills should not count as they are skill level 0.

Another reason I believe it should be 2x (Int + Edu) is just the simple fact that task resolution is done with 2d6, to me it just seems like a nice comparative point. A balance so to speak, I know it might be a little strange that I mention it this way but I can't help that part. It is just how I look at things.

 

[Kautsu]

Reading the new rules for learning new skills on p. 51, I'm surprised they changed them from the previous. The thing to remember is that if your party has a ship they will be spending every other week in jump space usually. Let's say there's a few weeks they stick around a planet to sort out a long adventure, that's still likely to be 20 weeks spent in jump space with little more to do than surf the ship's computer and learn new skills. So you could possible be picking up 20 level 0 or level 1 skills in a year.

I noticed the same. The new advancement speed during game is very fast. I did send suggestion for more realistic development on skill advancement thread.

I honestly think the skill advancement during creation should do the same, and no need to have max rank of 4 (max skill rank total is okay - when you reach max and learn new skill, your option is drop other skill by one).

 

[MongooseMatt]

Just to let you all know, the Training section has been re-written for the next revision;

Training
In order to train for a new skill, or improve an existing one, a Traveller must commit to a Study Period. A Study Period is equal to 24 weeks (or 6 months) of study and practice. These weeks within a Study Period need not be consecutive, but each week must be fully dedicated to study with at least eight hours per day spent learning and practicing.

If this cannot be achieved, if the Traveller is interrupted on the third day of a week and must perform a task for a patron, for example, then any training performed that week is wasted. Make a note for every week of training that is completed – an area for this has been set aside on the Traveller character sheet.

Once 24 weeks of training and learning have been accumulated, over any length of total time, a Study Period has been completed.

At this point, the Traveller must succeed at an Average (8+) EDU check.

Success indicates the Traveller has learned something and if they were attempting to learn a brand new skill at level 0, they can now add that to his character sheet.

Failure indicates the Traveller has learned nothing new or useful but may try again after another successful Study Period.

To improve skills to the next higher level, the Traveller must accumulate a number of successful Study Periods equal to the level of skill they are trying to reach. For example, if a Traveller had Electronics (computers) 1 and was trying to learn Electronics (computers) 2, this would require two successful Study Periods.

Many Travellers take the opportunity of week-long jump travel to study, learning new skills during what might otherwise be a dull journey.

It is important to note that failing a Study Period does not necessarily mean the Traveller has not understood the study materials, just that they failed to get anything useful out of them. A Traveller failing their EDU check while studying Science (physics) during jump travel, for example, might find the Captain of the ship is constantly ordering them to clean the cargo deck, they might be distracted by a hobby or new vid show, or they might just be spending their time sitting in their bunk eating Sugary Puff sandwiches while reading What Space Bike? Magazine when they really should be studying…

 

[CosmicGamer]

As I've indicated in other threads on this topic, I really dislike this:

A Traveller failing their EDU check while studying Science (physics) during jump travel, for example, might find the Captain of the ship is constantly ordering them to clean the cargo deck, they might be distracted by a hobby or new vid show, or they might just be spending their time sitting in their bunk eating Sugary Puff sandwiches while reading What Space Bike? Magazine when they really should be studying…

This does not match the description in the rules which says a week of training can only be "ticked off" if there are no interruptions:

if the Traveller is interrupted on the third day of a week and must perform a task for a patron, for example, then any training performed that week is wasted

And what if during the entire 24 weeks of training the character role played being diligent about their studies? Now your saying the die roll at the end ignores all the role playing and they really were goofing off?

Why can't you leave this part out and keep it with just

It is important to note that failing a Study Period does not necessarily mean the Traveller has not understood the study materials, just that they failed to get anything useful out of them.

or change it to something like

Failing a Study Period may indicate the Traveller did not have had the appropriate educational material, environment, tools and resources to study the skill or it may simple be that they need more time learning and practicing the skill to gain experience.

 

[-Daniel-]

Ok so ....
Level 0 = 1 six months period and 1 EDU roll
Level 1 = 1 six months period and 1 EDU roll
Level 2 = 2 six month periods and 2 EDU rolls
Level 3 = 3 six month periods and 3 EDU rolls.
etc.

It does offers a clear set of time and roll needed. Of course those GMs who want to change it can, but it gives us a baseline to go by.

 

[Kaelic]

Have you looked at the statistics of the new system? I think it shows how the whole skill-check to pass concept is utterly broken. Based on the chance of an 8+ you can produce an average outcome as I show below:

Average Training Outcome

So given this average, why make it a roll at all? Just make it 48 weeks. All it really does is punish the unlucky, or anyone without a bonus in EDU.

Here is how long it would take with +0 EDU bonus for each rank:
Rank 0 = 48 Weeks
Rank 1 = 48 Weeks (96 Cumulative weeks)
Rank 2 = 96 Weeks (192 Cumulative weeks)
Rank 3 = 144 Weeks (336 Cumulative weeks)

To achieve Rank 3 from nothing takes about 6.5 years of constant studying or 18,816 hours. Interestingly the book "Outliers" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0141036257) brings up the 10,000 hour "rule", in that he claims based on studying great people, it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate study to become world-class at anything. Most counter-arguments to this suggest less practice + innate talent is important but I've never seen anyone suggest more.

In the Traveller world, it appears to be nearly twice that!

It's amusing to imagine an EDU -1 taking 96 weeks of 8 hours a day training to learn Gun Combat 0.

48 weeks is still too long considering it's 8 hours a day on ONE skill alone. Last year in real-life I learned quite a bit on the job, off the job and in evening classes. Most games model such life progression with XP, because while the process seems gamey the outcome is far more realistic to growth.

Also apparently you don't get better at shooting if you do Merc work all year, only if you study shooting for 8 hours a day in isolation for a year

Frankly, I think if this is the best we can get for release, it shouldn't be in the main release. I know this book has a lot going on and this is a hotly argued topic. For that reason alone I feel it needs to be moved to the companion. A half-arsed warped system is worse than no system at all in my opinion.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Matt, perhaps the last few posts should be moved to the "Training new skills after chargen" thread instead of this thread "max skill ranks".

 

[-Daniel-]

Just curious Kaelic, what would the chart look like if the target was Routine for example?

To be honest I am at a loss how any training system will make everyone happy. So the real question I guess is who gets to be happy and who gets to make a house rule system? :wink:

To achieve Rank 3 from nothing takes about 6.5 years of constant studying or 18,816 hours. Interestingly the book "Outliers" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0141036257) brings up the 10,000 hour "rule", in that he claims based on studying great people, it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate study to become world-class at anything. Most counter-arguments to this suggest less practice + innate talent is important but I've never seen anyone suggest more.

In the Traveller world, it appears to be nearly twice that!

Side question, are you assuming 7 days a week or 5 days a week for the study program?

 

[Kaelic]

Side question, are you assuming 7 days a week or 5 days a week for the study program?

7 days a week.

I'll get back to you on the Routine chart.

 

[Kaelic]

Another thing to consider...

How many weeks go by in a single Traveller session for most people? What's the average? Assuming these are Jump Weeks and not the Travellers going off for weeks to train on their own (if this is really what people want players doing, I'm at a loss for words).

Let's make a few assumptions:
4 Hour gaming session
1 Session per real week

How long would it take in real-time to gain a skill based on number of jumps in a session?

Real time to get Rank 0 skill

You can see my complaint as someone who tends to play games with 0-2 Jumps per session. Even at 6 jumps per session, which seems like a lot to me, you're taking 3 real-life months to get a Rank 0 skill.