Banesfinger
Mongoose
What possible problems could I face if I made a set of house rules to max-out skills at 100%?
Max-out skills at 100%?
- Thread starter Banesfinger
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Banesfinger
Mongoose
Rurik said:
The learning/advancement limit on skills would top-out at 100%. (A slight house rule to curb the level of advancement would be needed).
However, temporary modifiers/spells/situations, etc can bring this over 100%, but this would have little effect, since d100 cannot roll higher than 00, you are almost assured of success.
In my mind, it seems odd that a d100 based game lets you raise skills beyond the value the dice could possibly roll (or am I missing something here?).
Sure, a higher than 100%+ skill helps to overcome penalties to the roll, but other than that, I'm not sure why the designers allowed skills > 100 (how can you learn to be better than perfection (100%)???)
Will this set of house rules 'break' other areas of the game, that I have not foreseen?
Banned Beetle
Mongoose
That was an interesting idea! Have to think about that one. 
Trif.
Trif.
I'm not sure it is entirely necessary. Skill improvements slow to a snails pace after 100 (usually only going up at 1% per improvement point unless you have a REALLY GOOD mentor.
If you use the armor penalties as is I'm not sure you want to cap skills either. With -42% for full plate you get an adjusted 58% in any skill that is 100, so skills over 100 become very useful. I would think you would want to reduce armor penalties if you cap skills. Alot of other things like Precise Attacks use skill penalties as well.
But if you really want to, there is nothing stopping you from imposing a 100 cap. It will keep the power level relatively low in your games.
If you use the armor penalties as is I'm not sure you want to cap skills either. With -42% for full plate you get an adjusted 58% in any skill that is 100, so skills over 100 become very useful. I would think you would want to reduce armor penalties if you cap skills. Alot of other things like Precise Attacks use skill penalties as well.
But if you really want to, there is nothing stopping you from imposing a 100 cap. It will keep the power level relatively low in your games.
Banesfinger said:
It isn't perfection, that would be pretty much always getting a critical success regardless of how bad the situational penalties are, in other words always getting the best result possible. A character with 100% skill doesn't get close to achieving that.
100% only means that you are (pretty much) guaranteed to succeed at tasks with a common, default difficulty. That's all. For example that a marksman has a (near) 100% chance of hitting a standard sized target at short range. I personally know quite a few people who can do that (I was in the TA - the UK army reserve for a while), yet their skill against targets at longer range, or moving targets still vary considerably and none of them are Olympic grade marksmen.
Skill over 100% allows room at the top end for such highly skilled characters who have a near 100% chance in situations far more challenging than the default level.
Banned Beetle
Mongoose
But it would certainly help with the opposed skills. Not necessary to use it for weapon skills.
Trif.
Trif.
Banned Beetle
Mongoose
Yes. I definitively like it Banesfinger. Great idea! With the exception of weapon skills, skills are mastered when you reach 100%. Then opposed rolls are dealt with easily with the rolling low method (including fumbles ,failures, success & criticals of course) that has been proposed. It simplifies.
Any major problems with this solution?
Trif.
Any major problems with this solution?
Trif.
Banesfinger
Mongoose
I see simonh’s point.simonh said:
Perhaps this solution solves both points of view:
All skills can be advanced as normal (even beyond 100%). However, after all modifiers have been applied, values above 100% are ignored, except when calculating criticals.
For example, under normal circumstances (no modifiers), shooting a bow with a skill of 120% is no more effective than shooting a bow with 100% (with the exception of critcal frequency). However, if there was a fierce wind (-40%), his high skill would help, resulting in a net 80%.
Using simonh’s example:
A 100% marksman would hit that standard sized target at normal range 100% of the time. However, so would a 150% marksmen. Only when the wind/distance/etc became a factor, would the better man prevail.simonh said:
The same logic applies to opposed skills. Both marksmen under normal range/size targets would have the same chance of winning. Only when the opposed skill test is done under poor conditions would the better marksman have an edge.
From a game mechanic point-of-view, it is REALLY easy:
After modifiers, any results greater than 100%+ are treated as 100%. (Even for opposed tests). Calculate criticals after all modifiers.
Dead Simple. No massive house rules for that one…
Thoughts?
Banned Beetle said:
All the characters in your game will look the same after awhile?
It really wont take that long for a character to have 100% perception, 100% stealth, 100% resistance, 100% in a few weapons skills and dodge, and 100% in whatever applicable spell skills he needs.
Combat may as well be resolved by flipping a coin, since *everyone* will have the exact same skill level.
It's a bad idea IMO. In RQ, a skill of 100% does not mean "perfect", nor is it remotely "the best you can be". A 100% skill simply means that you can pretty much always succeed at whatever you're attempting if what you're doing is not particularly hard (ie: no minuses and no one actively trying to stop you fromm succeeding). A weapon skill of 100% means that you can hit a human sized target that isn't moving too much with the correct part of your weapon pretty much every time.
The RQ skill system virtually requires that skills be allowed to progress over 100%. You're free to experiement with the limit, but I think that you'll find it wont work for very long.
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
Evidence from piles of BRP based games pretty much disproves that, unless your campaign runs for several years.
Utgardloki
Mongoose
One of my friends told me he had an idea for a game where the maximum skill was 200%.
The idea would be that 100% means basic proficiency, i.e. you can do most tasks with ease. 200% would mean you've perfected the skill -- even difficult tasks can be done with ease and it takes a serious hindrance to reduce your chances.
I had mentioned in another thread that 200% might be the new 100%, especially with specialization rules discussed in several threads.
For opposed rolls, perhaps everybody's skill % could be halfed, whether or not they were over 100%.
The idea would be that 100% means basic proficiency, i.e. you can do most tasks with ease. 200% would mean you've perfected the skill -- even difficult tasks can be done with ease and it takes a serious hindrance to reduce your chances.
I had mentioned in another thread that 200% might be the new 100%, especially with specialization rules discussed in several threads.
For opposed rolls, perhaps everybody's skill % could be halfed, whether or not they were over 100%.
Banned Beetle
Mongoose
Did anyone notice I EXCLUDED weapon skills from the rule??
Concerning the other skills, perception, stealth, riding, tracking, etc. When I've played, VERY few characters had skills which went above 100%. It was VERY rare. And if someone DID have skills over 100%, it was maybe 103% or something. If you have 200% in a skill, you've certainly houseruled the rules for experience skill gain.
So, weapon skill are not included. Lotsof spell increase these skills, and weapon skill are not involved in opposed rolls.
Anyone who can see any major problems with this rule, and give examples which DO NOT include weapon skills?
Trif.
Concerning the other skills, perception, stealth, riding, tracking, etc. When I've played, VERY few characters had skills which went above 100%. It was VERY rare. And if someone DID have skills over 100%, it was maybe 103% or something. If you have 200% in a skill, you've certainly houseruled the rules for experience skill gain.
So, weapon skill are not included. Lotsof spell increase these skills, and weapon skill are not involved in opposed rolls.
Anyone who can see any major problems with this rule, and give examples which DO NOT include weapon skills?
Trif.
I'd just like to pint out that this is more of a problem for MRQ than it was for previous editions of the rules because MRQ characters seem to start out with higher best skills. In RQ2 or RQ3 many characters would start out with no skills over about 65%. In MRQ it's common to start out with skills of around 80%.
Some slight differences in the rate of advancement aside, that means characters will hit 100% skill much quicker, and for practical purposes a skill of around 95% is enough. For some starting characters that's only going to be about 10% away.
Now for my part, that's fine. In my RQ3 campaigns,m and later using Elric with RQ3 magic, I was pretty generous with starting characters. I ran games where characters would be clan champions, envoys on diplomatic missions, etc and so I wanted my players to start out capable of handling themselves in tough situations. Fortunately I was using rules that work well for characters at over 100% skill. In the Elric rules you can start out with a skill over 100% and the game works very smoothly for skill levels approaching 200% without any extra dice rolling or complex mathematics. The alternate system on my site IMHO also handles skills over 100% without breaking step at the 100% threshold.
Some slight differences in the rate of advancement aside, that means characters will hit 100% skill much quicker, and for practical purposes a skill of around 95% is enough. For some starting characters that's only going to be about 10% away.
Now for my part, that's fine. In my RQ3 campaigns,m and later using Elric with RQ3 magic, I was pretty generous with starting characters. I ran games where characters would be clan champions, envoys on diplomatic missions, etc and so I wanted my players to start out capable of handling themselves in tough situations. Fortunately I was using rules that work well for characters at over 100% skill. In the Elric rules you can start out with a skill over 100% and the game works very smoothly for skill levels approaching 200% without any extra dice rolling or complex mathematics. The alternate system on my site IMHO also handles skills over 100% without breaking step at the 100% threshold.
You will not solve the problem of skills above 100 by doing so, as it is actually a problem of success chance and not skill level.
For instance : imagine that a character with 100% in Perception tries to find another one that is hidden in an environment that gives him +50% in his Hide skill, which is already at 100%. It would not be fair to ignore the +50% modifier in the contest.
For instance : imagine that a character with 100% in Perception tries to find another one that is hidden in an environment that gives him +50% in his Hide skill, which is already at 100%. It would not be fair to ignore the +50% modifier in the contest.
gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
Banesfinger said:
This is good...very good in fact.
It's simple and effective, and actually makes sense too. I don't think I'm the only one who's been too caught up in the maths to see the bigger picture.
As an example, apply it to the Sneak skill. There comes a point when a character sneaking across a room will simply make no perceptible noise under normal circumstances - that point is represented by a skill of 100%. If a character with 150% skill crosses the same room, he can't do any better than the previous guy - neither will make any noise. (I'm ignoring the 5% automatic failure for simplicity's sake)
Scatter some broken glass across the room, and then you'll notice the difference between the expert and the true master (who in game terms will ignore the -50% penalty to his sneak roll imposed by the GM).
Good call. 8)
Banned Beetle
Mongoose
simonh said:
Mhm. I never let people start with skills over 100%. And I'll use the old skill check system. Getting a skill up to 150% with that system is virtually impossible, so skills in that range won't be a problem for me. I don't think any player in my group has ever been above 110%, with the exception of magic augmented weapon skills.
gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
Mugen said:
This is also how I viewed these things up until recently (about an hour ago actually
), but I don't believe it's true.The guy who is at 100% knows how to make use of every nook, cranny, and shadow in the environment in order to hide himself. With him is another dude at 50% hide - he's reasonably good at it, but is far more likely to be spotted under normal circumstances.
Then someone turns the lights out.
Everyone now gets +50% to their hide. Does this help the character already at 100%? Not a lot, he wasn't going to be seen anyway. His range of hiding places has possibly expanded a little, but he will benefit far less, and this is represented by the increase in his Critical range.
But does it help the other character...you bet your a$$ it does, as those telltale signs he would leave that would get him noticed can no longer be seen. The darkness is the great equaliser.
gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
simonh said:
It's always been a problem, but you're right in that you tend to hit the problem sooner in MRQ than earlier editions.
simonh said:
Remind me again how Elric does it - I haven't played that in a very long time (and in fact only ever played the original Stormbringer rules)
Even if you cap non combat skills at 100 there is a number of ways to get bonuses to push them over 100.
If you run a low powered game such a cap may work, but I for one think RQ is about Heroics. Natural skill progression is very slow past 100, but skill bonuses are one of the (many) reasons to go on HeroQuests.
Should Harrek, Jar-eel, and Argrath have their skills maxed at 100?
Also, I expect you will run into published stats in the future with skills over 100.
There are a number of solutions that use simple subtraction.
If you run a low powered game such a cap may work, but I for one think RQ is about Heroics. Natural skill progression is very slow past 100, but skill bonuses are one of the (many) reasons to go on HeroQuests.
Should Harrek, Jar-eel, and Argrath have their skills maxed at 100?
Also, I expect you will run into published stats in the future with skills over 100.
There are a number of solutions that use simple subtraction.
