Matt S./ V1.1 Comments/Suggestion

[JTL109]

03-Army of Light
All fleets should have more than one choice.
1. Abbai: It is unlikely that the Bimith would be sent because
it does not have a jump engine. The Lakara would be a
more believable choice.
2. Gaim: The Queens would not allow a drone to be in a
command position in a combined fleet. I would suggest
adding the small Queen Light Cruiser to the list.

Fleet Allocation Points
This new breakdown will only drive the game to a ‘big ships’
rule’ mentality. The squadron rule for the ‘two-fer’ ships
does the job of squashing the ‘swarm’ fleet quite nicely.

Flights and Victory Points
This rule will make it mandatory to identify fighters and to which
ship they belong . Adds effort and some complexity, not certain
that it is worth the trouble.

Small ships
Handles the ‘swarm’ fleet ‘problem nicely.


04-New Ships
Haltana-Gravetic Frigate
The Gravitic Shifter needs to have attack dice assigned.
The current no attack dice make this useful against only
hull 4 ships. It is wildly unlikely that someone will roll
boxcars TWICE to hit a hull 6 ship.

Z’Trikk Heavy Carrier
I would suggest reducing the fighters to 16 (8/8) and
putting in a secondary battery of accurate or precise
Antimatter Shredders, range 10, Double damage,
twin linked, accurate or precise. The secondary battery
makes the ship consistent with all prior Vree ships.
The accurate or precise makes the ship more consistent
with the year 2271.


Comments:
An additional comment on the Vree as rework is in process.
I suggest the all Vree ships be provided with the dodge trait,
The value of the trait would be equal to the hull value of the
ship. This change can be explained as an extension of the
Super Maneuverable Trait. I make this suggestion because the
Vree are one of the stronger fleets in the LoNAW and the Vree
are the only fleet in the rules the have more than half of the available
ship classes at a hull value of four (4).The move to reduce the
number of ships will only weaken the Vree as the best ships are
very small. The Vree are frequently critised for being overly
powerful, I play with and against the Vree, and have found them
to be generally weak. The Vree are overly sensitive the the critical
hit chart as no other fleet can be. While the SAP/DD weapons
are nice, there are not enough dice being thrown to be really
effective.

 

[CZuschlag]

Dodge?! Dear Lord, you have to be joking. Remember the chart I put out some days ago? Do you believe, in all seriousness, that the Xixx is only half as powerful as it should be? The Xaak is 66% of a full Battle choice?

Seriously?

Vree are one of the new power races. This Xill, Xonn, Xaak, Tzymm, and Xixx are outstanding hulls. There's nothing wrong with the Z'Takk, or Ximm, either. The Xaar is flat busted. What the Varrl does is over the top in mixed league fleets, merely outstanding to the Vree themselves. It is the new uberfleet on the block, joining Early EA, Dilgar, Centauri, and ISA. On no account do the Vree need any such boost for any reason.

 

[Methos5000]

04-New Ships
Haltana-Gravetic Frigate
The Gravitic Shifter needs to have attack dice assigned.
The current no attack dice make this useful against only
hull 4 ships. It is wildly unlikely that someone will roll
boxcars TWICE to hit a hull 6 ship.

I was under the impression the Gravitic shifter was an opposed CQ check did that change?

 

[JTL109]

04-New Ships
Haltana-Gravetic Frigate
The Gravitic Shifter needs to have attack dice assigned.
The current no attack dice make this useful against only
hull 4 ships. It is wildly unlikely that someone will roll
boxcars TWICE to hit a hull 6 ship.

I was under the impression the Gravitic shifter was an opposed CQ check did that change?

You are right, I forgot. Don't use the things.
Still thing that it would work better with 'X' number of AD.

 

[silashand]

Vree are one of the new power races ... It is the new uberfleet on the block, joining Early EA, Dilgar, Centauri, and ISA. On no account do the Vree need any such boost for any reason.

Just based on stats (I don't play Vree - yet ;-)) I would have to agree. The Vree stand to make out quite well with the updated rules in P&P and I don't see them as needing Dodge at all.

JMO...

Cheers, Gary
- now if they were to give my Drakh fast destroyers dodge 5+ then I'd be ecstatic as they might actually survive long enough to see combat ;-).

 

[eldiablito]

Boy, please don't do this to my Vree... With dodge on every ship, these guys would only occupy a display case and no one would play against me.

In truth, we could give every vree ship dodge; it would make a sort of sense too. The ability to move without any inertia would make it easy to avoid incoming fire. That said, in an attempt to balance these ships with everyone else, we would have to loose something else; perhaps loose our double and triple damage as a way to compensate?

Blech... This would take tons of play testing and we have bigger fish to fry. Perhaps in the next edition...

 

[katadder]

i like the vree as they are with the downgrading of the skirmish carrier.
only other thing I would change is put shredders on the patrol ship rather than the cannons it currently carries.

 

[CZuschlag]

Absolutely with respect to the Xaar! Horridly overgunned. Do this, and you fix another of my 20!

Seriously, of my 20, you're fixing a lot of them with this release (I think...)

Gaim (all)...........maybe check
Demos...............check
Shadow Fighter...check (and maybe more!)
Bimith................check
Shadowfury........check
Shadow Stalker...check
Milani...................???
Whitestars..........check
Tzymm...............well, you're doing the Xeel instead, OK
Haltona...............
Xonn...................
Xaar...................check (I hope!)
Lakara.................???
Jashakar Tae......
G'Vrahn..............check
G'Quan...............check
Bluestar..............
Amu...................check
Octurion.............
Sulust................

(as best as I remember them, mostly in order). 14 of 20 is pretty decent. My current honorable mentions -- they change -- after these included the War-level Carriers (Poseidon and Cidikar), the Mankhat, the Nightfalcon, the Ochliavita, the Mograth, the Shadow Omega, the Darkener, the Xaak, the Rongoth-T'Loth-G'Sten-G'Quan complex, the Vorchan, the Xixx, the Kamare Sas, the Ma'cu, and the Saggittarius.

You even got some of the honorable mentions!

------------

Edit: I realize now I said "Xorr" when I meant "Xonn". I totally screwed up. Fixed above. Sorry!

 

[Tolwyn]

I still see the problem that buying down is still better then fielding larger ships. More AD, more Damage, more Crew.

 

[silashand]

I'd add the Primus in there as well. Though it's a decent ship overall, there always seems to be a reason not to take it over the other options at its PL. Not sure how I would fix that, but in reality I think it goes back too making the big Centauri ships like the Octurian and Primus viable as compared to the others in the fleet list. JMO though.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Hindsight]

The Vree hurt my very soul. Then they blow it up.

 

[Foxmeister]

I'd add the Primus in there as well. Though it's a decent ship overall, there always seems to be a reason not to take it over the other options at its PL. Not sure how I would fix that, but in reality I think it goes back too making the big Centauri ships like the Octurian and Primus viable as compared to the others in the fleet list. JMO though.

The problem is not with the Primus - the issue is that the Centauri have very strong options at Battle, and the Primus isn't one of the strongest.

Regards,

Dave

 

[silashand]

The problem is not with the Primus - the issue is that the Centauri have very strong options at Battle, and the Primus isn't one of the strongest.

That's kinda what I said ;-).

My real issue is that it's a canon ship, and a cool one at that, yet they don't seem to show up in most people's fleets. Something about that just seems wrong IMO.

I know! Let's give it GEG 4!!! ... Not!

Cheers, Gary

 

[CZuschlag]

It's likely because the Liati is somewhat overcooked.

 

[silashand]

It's likely because the Liati is somewhat overcooked.

Possibly, though the Liati is per the description meant to outfight the White Star on pretty much every level which is a tough objective. I don't think the Liati is broken by any means, but it does mean the poor Primus probably needs something to make it a little more worthwhile. Maybe a Rutarian flight or two? Too much?

Cheers, Gary

 

[Lord David the Denied]

On the Centauri:

I use a Primus as often as not, it has real uses against some fleets. I used it against the Abbai in my last game and it performed well. That all-round fire capability that's rare for the Centauri is invaluable against a race that has to close in to well inside your range to fire their weapons. It's great against anyone that's likely to drive past your fleet to evade your nasty front guns, they still get hurt even if not as badly.

I've not yet used a Liati but I can't be the only one that sees the weakness of the class. It has less damage than most raid ships and while it has dodge all it takes is a few failed rolls and it's a cloud of floating debris. It's fine for what it is but it's no super-ship.

The Dargan is only really useful against fleets that want to keep the range open or aren't likely to have a scout, as the stealth 4+ is only a 50/50 chance of evading fire with no range or other modifiers and it suffers at hull 5. Front firepower is better than a Primus, but not by much, and it lacks any rear guns at all. Useful to be sure but by no means a no-brainer choice over a Primus.

On the Vree:

Having played against the Vree in Triggy's fiendish hands I can say they are powerful but not broken by any means. With the Xaar modified to have a shredder instead of a cannon it was perfectly fair, a nippy little gunboat that was annoying but not massively deadly. The Xonn Dreadnought was powerful but not broken either. It performed well for a battle level unit but remember it only have two weapon lines and while they're turret arc they stop firing altogether with any of the no firing from one arc critials. They're also all subject to being intercepted.

I genuinely don't see anyone's beef with the Tzymm, it's a nice fighter but only dogfight +1 so not terrifying and not available in huge numbers. A few flights of decent fighters can cover your fleet from them and a lot of the time the Vree will be using them to intercept fire anyway - which I'd much rather see as they die very easily doing that and you don't have to worry about them attacking your fleet.

 

[CZuschlag]

The Liati is effectively (because of Dodge) 52:64 with half of the critical effects hits vanishing into space --- they were dodged! That a huge ship. Hull 5 counters this somewhat, you get Agile, 2/90, and 14". Wow.

The front gun is from a Tinashi but is 7" shorter. Then, you get a full Vorchan suite of forward bearing secondaries.

2 Rutarians to boot? Such a deal! At Battle-level, it's an excellent buy. Not on my issue list, yet, though ---- it's kinda like the Rail Hyperion, Targrath, Drakh Light Raider, Ka'Toc, and the Shadow Scout. Notably above par, but not game-distorting.

 

[Da Boss]

I use both the Liati ALOT - love it (not the model though) it works well with the fast Centauri ships and has all those cool abilities.

The Primus I had ignored but actually LDTD got me to use them and I have found it a good solid ship - in a big battle I take both.

Dargan not really used - its looks great and should be ok but the other two get used instead.......

the only "bad" ship I feel in the Centauri fleet is the Octurion as the only war level choice its just not that good.............not Fire Raptor bad by any means but just on the poor side so I don't really use it. (bit more range
on the beam may cover it, 1 dice interceptor would be very nice............)

 

[Foxmeister]

the only "bad" ship I feel in the Centauri fleet is the Octurion as the only war level choice its just not that good.............

War PL is the only part of the Centauri list where they are poorly served. At every other PL, they have good, solid, choices (sometimes outstanding ones).

Regards,

Dave

 

[skavendan]

interceptor 1 and a beam update. Abit suprised the beam is so poor.