Man-Portable Artillery vs. Ship

[Scalding]

My players have just started their game and were lucky enough to be able to afford a Free Trader A. They are (rightly) worried about coming under attack and have the idea that they might be able to get a PGMP-equipped Combat Drone to help repel boarders.

So what happens when the PGMP sprays the bulkheads with its excessive firepower?

The best I can come up with is from the Spacecraft Weapons and Personal Combat sidebar on page 151 which says starship weapons are multiplied by 50 when damaging personal-scale things. If I take that in reverse, it's 1 damage (damage chart on page 150) for every 50 damage of man-portable artillery. PGMP's average 42 damage, and FGMP's 56, so it's about 1 point of damage with either weapon.

It seems a bit less than I had expected from reading the descriptions of the ?GMP weapons, but maybe that's ok. In the situation above it would be Internal Damage, and rather than roll I'd just look at the ship's layout to determine what system was hit.

Anyway, what are the thoughts of the group here? I've only seen one post on it, calling it an 'age-old question', but that didn't really resolve the issue for me.

 

[rust]

The first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about
the idea to use an FGMP or PGMP on board of a ship is tem-
perature - everyone nearby who does not wear a protective
suit would almost certainly be killed by inhaling the heated
air (or suffocate because the ship's security system would
flood the area in question with inert gas to fight the "fire").

As for the damage to the ship's interior, I think electronics
and other fragile stuff, like furniture, would be destroyed by
a hit, but the walls should be able to withstand an occasio-
nal hit, although the paint would of course suffer.

 

[Rick]

I thought the 1:50 ratio was for the outside hull of the ship - I would have thought the interior walls (apart from a few structural bulkheads) would be a bit more fragile than that. Opening up with one of those weapons inside the ship, I would expect a lot of damage to interior walls, delicate power/data conduits, etc. as well as superheated air, toxic gases from melted plastics, etc. I don't think it'd be very pretty and you might get damage to the ships main systems. Have they considered shotguns instead? :twisted:

 

[Reynard]

I remember a LONG time ago it was mentioned the reason so many people learn ancient weapons such as blades and slug throwers in high tech societies was use on starships. Even pirates realize firing lasers and other high-powered ordinance could lead to hull breeches and vital equipmemt damage upon boarding. It doesn't pay to wreck the vessel you want to capture. Even military operations try to minimize damage inside because it could mean explosive decompression, fuel explosions and fires, real hazards to be avoided.

First, I'm impressed you're trader crew is even thinking about somehow purchasing an 110KCr military grade remote weapon of mass destruction. Second, I'm disturbed they would want to operate what's normally a groundside weapon inside a fragile civilian ship. Most slug throwers do around 3d6 damage while plasma and fusion guns do 10d6 autofire!! (A ship's laser does 50-300 points personal scale damage.) Firing these weapons at the outside hull of even the weakest smallcraft may cause small atmosphere venting breeches with a lucky roll. But you're talking inside the hull where all the fuel, wires, pipes and ducts are. Seriously, internal walls are more for privacy than protection though some walls made be reinforced for compartmenting hull breeches or internal hazards. Think armor 5 for normal and maybe 10 for reinforced. Remember the man-portables do 10-60 points... Also read the core rulebook pg 102 Sidebar: Serious Firepower.

So save your credits. Read pages 144-145 concerning security systems. Tenacious boarders should be met with reasonable force and protection. Purchase vaccsuits that protect from weapon fire and environmental hazards and think in terms that the enemy will more often than not have the same. Notice why cutlasses and snub pistols are listed as standard shipboard weapons. Save the big stuff for planetside.

 

[Rick]

I remember a very old White Dwarf article for Traveller (yup - that old!)(edit: White Dwarf 39 - "Stand by to Repel Boarders" by Andrew Miller) that had some handy tips and tricks for use against unwanted guests - think it was called 'repel boarders' or somesuch. I'm sure there have been other articles on the same subject since then. I'm really surprised that nobody has ever brought out a book for one of the Traveller versions on the subject as it's one of the things that keeps cropping up.

 

[rust]

I'm really surprised that nobody has ever brought out a book for one of the Traveller versions on the subject as it's one of the things that keeps cropping up.

Traveller "canon" would make it difficult to write such a book,
because it is somewhat contradictory. There is official material
which supports the "blade and snub weapon school" as well as
official material which supports the "heavy weapons school", in
the end each referee has to decide which approach he prefers
for his setting.

 

[Rick]

Very true, I don't think I've ever seen a list of suggested damage/armour for internal walls or doors, or other fixtures and fittings for that matter (Edit: whoops - 2 mins of searching through pdf's and I found them for Classic Traveller and GURPS Traveller - guess it is just Mongoose Traveller that hasn't done it, lol!). Mind you - looking at the various deckplans you do get the impression that internal walls are not as robust as the external hull, purely on the relative thicknesses.

 

[Reynard]

Alright, I found The Source, Supplement 5:Lightning Class Cruiser and the Azhanti High Lightning board game!

The game does make references to damaging and breaching structures. Mostly walls and machinery aide in cover for a target but they rule firing at equipment or a missed shot terminating its line of sight (and range) on equipment can cause damage and possibly explosion. Light equipment (consoles and such) are consitered have the equivalent of cloth armor while heavy equipment such as the drives are treated to have battledress armor rating. The damage rules are ranks of damage in a table rather than applying damage to attributes. Essentially, doing a massive amount of damage in one shot causes an explosion. Light equipment is the equivalent of a frag grenade while heavy is similar to fusion gun damage causing collateral to everyone two squares away.

There are also structural damage rules. Collateral damage and weapons fired at structures can damage and breach them. A missed shot can continue until it hits a structure in its line of sight. A weapon's or explosion's damage minus a structural modifier is damage to that particular section of structure. Doors have -4 to damage and 5 points before breach big enough to pass through. Conduit is -3 and 6, internal walls are -4 and 25, iris valves -5 and 100 and bulkheads are -5 and 250. Outer hull and decks can't be penetrated. You might play with these values for ship combat in MgT.

Once again this is why PGMP and FGMPs aren't good inside starships especially your own ship.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Once again this is why PGMP and FGMPs aren't good inside starships especially your own ship.

On someone elses ship they are perfect for a fast take down. A swarm if insect sized recon drones to fly ahead of you and pinpoint the defenders then your marines fire through the internal walls. Easy :lol:

With plasma and fusion weapons the only things that will stop them are big chunks of drive units and bulkheads. Firing a shot inside the average trader will punch through cabins, internal walls, doors etc till it hits a bulkhead or slams into a cargo container or multi Dton component.

As has already been mentioned anyone not in a vac suit will die quickly as well.

So for storming that pirate ship where you have no concerns about prisoners and don't want the ship as anything except a good Holo image for the story "Imperial Marines stop dreaded Pirate" they are great.

For defending your own trader and firing it on the inside of the ship :shock:

 

[phavoc]

According to the rules, pretty much nothing you can carry will penetrate the lightest starship hull. Whether that's good reasoning or not, well, different discussion for another thread...

But by the MGT rules, your weapons used inside a ship will never breach the hull. They can, however, punch holes in interior walls and bulkheads, damage life support and other engineering equipment, and generally make a mess of what's on the inside.

What they generally won't do is penetrate external airlocks (same hull materials dontchaknow), won't penetrate interior armored bulkheads, and generally for warships and the like, they won't be able to breach the doors and walls to sensitive armored areas like the bridge, engineering, the armory, the morgue (if you have one), missile magazines, and the like.

 

[Fovean]

Wasn't it CT Traders & Gunboats that had the 1000 points rule?

IIRC, it went that to create a man-sized hole in an interior bulkhead wall you had to inflict 1000 points of (Personal scale) damage. There were some guidelines for "partition walls" and iris valves too. So you could sort of extrapolate interior damage from there.

I'll try to look it up later.

 

[far-trader]

Wasn't it CT Traders & Gunboats that had the 1000 points rule?

Yep, mostly well recalled Fovean.

100 points of energy or explosive damage to breach (man size hole) interior partition walls, or 1000 points of slug damage to the same.

1000 points of energy or explosive damage to breach interior bulkheads, hulls (unarmoured presumably) or decks, no amount of slug damage will affect the same.

...pretty basic and simple. I seem to recall Snapshot had more detail, or it might have been somewhere else.

 

[Rick]

Snapshot's got pretty much the same as Azhanti High Lightning, but not quite as well developed. Snapshot only allows for explosions and energy weapons to damage structures. If you imagine that Snapshot is v.1, AHL is v.2 and Traders and Gunboats is more or less the same as AHL, just tied into the deckplans a bit more (say V.2.5!!). Given that CT had a standardised system for interior damage, it does seem odd that it's been overlooked in MGT.

 

[Solomani666]

When you take into account splash damage from each shot on nearby partition walls you will realize that any extended firefight with such a weapon is going to gut your ship. It will also start major fires, irradiate the bulkheads and whatever is left of the interior walls. In such a confined space it will probably also raise the interior air temperatures to unbreathable levels at least temporarily. Then there is the smoke and choking fumes from the ordinarily fireproof materials that have just been vaporized, including the floor and ceiling panels. Knock out all lighting, comm units, door controls and other electrical systems in the splash damaged area. Then there is the surrounding air that just got heated to 10,000+F in a fraction of a second inside of a confined space, so you can add explosive effects too.

So I have to ask you... Are you CRAZY?

.

 

[Scalding]

...I have to ask you... Are you CRAZY?

My players are justifiably interested in protecting their multi-million credit investment. On page 95, there seemed to be a great solution: the Combat Drone - have the Braniacs sit in the back and let the Drone handle the meet & greet. Since the description recommends PGMP, it seemed like a reasonable way to go. Although the PGMP is an obviously powerful weapon, nothing in its description indicates that it itself gives off excessive heat or radiation (though obviously the bolts it fires are hot). As a GM, I have to think about things like, "What happens to the ship behind the remains of your enemy?" but that question isn't really answered anywhere, as evident by this discussion. Still, I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.

The FGMP description does mention that it produces a great deal of radiation, and that wasn't the weapon under consideration.

 

[Rick]

Pgmp - P as in Plasma. Superheated Plasma. Does it really not mention anything of that in the description? If not, it would seem to be a bit of an oversight on Mongoose's part to assume everyone knew.

Edit: just checked the main rulebook - it looks fairly clear to me, but simply calling it a "high energy plasma stream" may not be making it really, really clear to new readers.

 

[rust]

Well, since there is also a "cold" plasma technology used
for stuff like TV screens, I can understand that "extremely
hot" does not automatically come to mind when reading
about a plasma weapon. However, with "superheated plas-
ma" the temperature range in question is beyond - most
probably far beyond - 10,000° Celsius.

 

[locarno24]

There is official material which supports the "blade and snub weapon school" as well as official material which supports the "heavy weapons school", in the end each referee has to decide which approach he prefers for his setting.

We tend to have both. Blade and accelerator is what you're stuck with if trying to protect your own ship or capture an enemy ship. If you're in battledress and have no regard for collateral damage, PGMP away!

As far as damage goes - for internal man portable artillery shots, I'd use vehicles for a comparison; is the object in question made of structural materials with the same bulk as (a) a bike, (b) a car, or (c) a tank?

That gives you the armour value and a rough guide as to damage capacity. Aside from structurally critical bulkheads (e.g. the ones the M-Drive is bolted to), I wouldn't imagine a civilian ship would have many internal sections armoured like battle tanks. Since a basic 'tank' in traveller has something like armour 20 (18 for TL12 AFV, 22 for TL15 ATGT), it's perfectly possible for a PGMP or pocket nuke to punch a hole straight through it.

I'd suggest that 3 (vehicle) hits - about 10 'actual' damage plus the armour reductions - is sufficient to blow a bike-sized object to scrap metal, it's probably sufficient to create a man-sized hole in an iris/deck/bulkhead/etc. Obviously this needs a little judgement by the GM - an HE rocket will, a PGMP will, sustained laser fire will, but a single ARMP round, no matter how much damage it rolls, won't leave more than a fist-sized hole in something unless it sets off a secondary explosion.

El Sprange has hinted that the upcoming Pirates of Drinax campaign may include extra rules relating to all things yo-ho-ho and yaaaarrr, so a general exposition on boarding actions isn't impossible.

 

[AndrewW]

El Sprange has hinted that the upcoming Pirates of Drinax campaign may include extra rules relating to all things yo-ho-ho and yaaaarrr, so a general exposition on boarding actions isn't impossible.

While there is some stuff related to them space swashbucklers boarding actions themselves aren't singled out for their own rules, at least in the first installment.

 

[locarno24]

Oh - is it up?