Low PL games and the Shadows.
- Thread starter Stonehorse
- Start date
Stonehorse said:
Being saying that for quite some time - last official response from M Spragne was that they are good - did not give a reason why or give any answers to my long list of why they are rubbish........ie:
extremely expensive
dogfight fodder
average weapons
average speed
resonable hull
no possibility of being boosted by Fleet Carrier or having escorts to assist them
The only real use is against fleets with no fighters or antifighter - Drakh? prob not aginst GEG or as interceptors - Great
I have to say that comparing them to a White Star Fighter, they are totally rubbish.
Both 2 per wing, same hull and dodge so all other things should be roughly equal...
Shadow fighter speed 12, WS speed 16
Shadow fighter has 3AD AP/DD, WS has 3AD A/AP/DD
Shadow dogfight 0, WS dogfight +3
But Shadow has shields to compensate...? When are they useful? Dogfight ignores them, and anti-fighter ignores them!!! Useful at range I guess. But who is scared of shadow fighters, just let em get close and mop em up.
Both 2 per wing, same hull and dodge so all other things should be roughly equal...
Shadow fighter speed 12, WS speed 16
Shadow fighter has 3AD AP/DD, WS has 3AD A/AP/DD
Shadow dogfight 0, WS dogfight +3
But Shadow has shields to compensate...? When are they useful? Dogfight ignores them, and anti-fighter ignores them!!! Useful at range I guess. But who is scared of shadow fighters, just let em get close and mop em up.
Stonehorse
Mongoose
To add to Da Boss' list:
If a Shadow Ship want's to use its Fighter Dispersal Tube, it can't fire any other weapons. So the Fighters that it launched cost the Shadow ship its shooting with its very impressive gun, and then they can do nothing when they are deployed in this fashion until next turn.
No wonder the Shadows lost the war, to busy trying out what seems to be a cool gizmo, only to find it is a handicap :lol:
I don't think I'll be using the Fighter Dispersal Tubes, as the fighters launched aren't even that good at being an annoyance.
If a Shadow Ship want's to use its Fighter Dispersal Tube, it can't fire any other weapons. So the Fighters that it launched cost the Shadow ship its shooting with its very impressive gun, and then they can do nothing when they are deployed in this fashion until next turn.
No wonder the Shadows lost the war, to busy trying out what seems to be a cool gizmo, only to find it is a handicap :lol:
I don't think I'll be using the Fighter Dispersal Tubes, as the fighters launched aren't even that good at being an annoyance.
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
Stonehorse, your fighters don't need to start deployed in the ships, or even on the board. As you have hyperspace mastery your fighters can phase on whereevr you want them to and act normally. That's quite an advantage, and now that it takes more hits to make a ship go kablooey you don't suffer so many deaths in the resulting ship explosions. Ok you will lose a few to AF but so what you have plenty more where they came from and you don't pay points for them unless you field independant wings and why would you do that with one of the worst fighters in space?
Use them lose them and forget about them
Use them lose them and forget about them
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
Well yes, in a campaign it is a different kettle of fish entirely. In that case leave them in hyper space, bring them out only when needed to kill something off if needed and then warp out again, whatever keeps losses to an absolute minimum.
It is a problem with both Shadows and Vorlons. they need to be in the game, they need to be hard because players want them to approach what was seen on TV, the SFOS buchering of them and the resultant complaints and changes shows that players want them to be powerful and that MGP are listening to that. However, there remains the question of balance within the game, at which point game balance and playability has to take over from the TV screen.
I don't think, even now, that they are quite right, although the changes in 2nd ed making them more like other ships is a move in the right direction, there are still areas that need looking at and areas where both fleets seem to be penalised for no apparant reason whatsoever, the cost of replacing fighters in a campaign being a very good example.
I think in their current format both fleets are heading in the right direction, extra ships for the shadows and a skirmish choice for the Vorlons, more powerful weapons for both fleets make up for the lack of AD and the multiple weapon systems of other ships. But both fleets still appear to be lacking something. I think in the end it comes down to a question of balance and playability, yes they need to be hard, but they need to be playable at the smae time. I think at the moment they are just slightly weaker in terms of damage for the vorlons and shield hits, especially the pinning points, for the shadows. I still believe the Vorlons need a Scout and maybe give the Shadow Cruiser at armageddon level the fleet carrier trait would solve some of thier fighter issues.
It is a problem with both Shadows and Vorlons. they need to be in the game, they need to be hard because players want them to approach what was seen on TV, the SFOS buchering of them and the resultant complaints and changes shows that players want them to be powerful and that MGP are listening to that. However, there remains the question of balance within the game, at which point game balance and playability has to take over from the TV screen.
I don't think, even now, that they are quite right, although the changes in 2nd ed making them more like other ships is a move in the right direction, there are still areas that need looking at and areas where both fleets seem to be penalised for no apparant reason whatsoever, the cost of replacing fighters in a campaign being a very good example.
I think in their current format both fleets are heading in the right direction, extra ships for the shadows and a skirmish choice for the Vorlons, more powerful weapons for both fleets make up for the lack of AD and the multiple weapon systems of other ships. But both fleets still appear to be lacking something. I think in the end it comes down to a question of balance and playability, yes they need to be hard, but they need to be playable at the smae time. I think at the moment they are just slightly weaker in terms of damage for the vorlons and shield hits, especially the pinning points, for the shadows. I still believe the Vorlons need a Scout and maybe give the Shadow Cruiser at armageddon level the fleet carrier trait would solve some of thier fighter issues.
Stonehorse
Mongoose
Right Hand of God said:
Ah, see I thought that they could only be deployed via the Fighter Dispersal Tubes. I can see how the above would be a seriously big advantage in friendly games.
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
they can star on the board already deployed, on the ship, or in hyper space, up to you, each offers tactical pros and cons, although keeping them on board, they are mostly cons
Stonehorse
Mongoose
zulu01 said:
True, but it does have a Hull of 6, where as the Raid choise only has a Hull of 5, what's more it has more Shields, and a better Self-Repair. And let's not forget that awesome gun it is carrying around.
All in all the Varient is a good choice, one which I think I'll be taking to battle quite a few times.
Stonehorse
Mongoose
Sorry for the double post.
I had my first game today using a Shadow Fleet against a Narn (swarm) Fleet.
The game was 5p oints of Raid, as the Shadow Ship is Iconic, I just had to have one, that and a Shadow Scout. Looking back I think taking the Shaow Ship was a big mistake.
The Narn Fleet was if I recall correctly, 3 Ka'Tocs, 4 Sho'Kar, 4 Sho'Kos, 1 Var'nic. Lots of Beams.
The game only lasted 4 turns, The Shadow ship was down to 2 thirds of it's health at the end of turn 2 end phase, while the Scout had 3 quarters left. The Narn player was very good at rolling 4+s, the worst part was when the Narn player rolled a very nasty critical...a 6 on Vitals with a double damage weapon, and then rolled 2 5s. 20 points of damage, which meant the shadow ship was stuned, as it was a beam weapon.
I even tried to run away and heal damage, but I just couldn't out pace the Narns and/or hide from their numbers.
I only managed to destroy 2 ships... I think the most I rolled for a beam was 6 4+s.
Next time I'll leave the Shadow Ship at home and take a fleet of 2 Shadow Scouts, 1 Shadow Stalker, and 4 wings of Shadow Fighters.
I had my first game today using a Shadow Fleet against a Narn (swarm) Fleet.
The game was 5p oints of Raid, as the Shadow Ship is Iconic, I just had to have one, that and a Shadow Scout. Looking back I think taking the Shaow Ship was a big mistake.
The Narn Fleet was if I recall correctly, 3 Ka'Tocs, 4 Sho'Kar, 4 Sho'Kos, 1 Var'nic. Lots of Beams.
The game only lasted 4 turns, The Shadow ship was down to 2 thirds of it's health at the end of turn 2 end phase, while the Scout had 3 quarters left. The Narn player was very good at rolling 4+s, the worst part was when the Narn player rolled a very nasty critical...a 6 on Vitals with a double damage weapon, and then rolled 2 5s. 20 points of damage, which meant the shadow ship was stuned, as it was a beam weapon.
I even tried to run away and heal damage, but I just couldn't out pace the Narns and/or hide from their numbers.
I only managed to destroy 2 ships... I think the most I rolled for a beam was 6 4+s.
Next time I'll leave the Shadow Ship at home and take a fleet of 2 Shadow Scouts, 1 Shadow Stalker, and 4 wings of Shadow Fighters.
Stonehorse said:
Yes, but Hull 5 or 6 does not make an difference for a beam ( and in this way for pinning a Stalker ) ... or do i get something wrong here ?
IMHO the Scout is a fine little raid ship with 5+ stealth and 6+ dodge. I this think the Stalker is a bit too weak for battle ... but maybe this is only me.
Captain Kremmen
Mongoose
Has anyone asked Mongoose for clarification. I can't follow the idea that shadow fighter shields do not work in a dogfight?
A shield is a shield how can a dogfighting fighter get around it?????
Cpt K
A shield is a shield how can a dogfighting fighter get around it?????
Cpt K
