Low PL games and the Shadows.

[Stonehorse]

I've just read through the new 2nd edition books and I've been swayed from doing a Narn or Brakiri fleet by those sleak and deadly Shadow ships. The box set looks like a good start, but I think 5 points of War is a bit big for a standard game, think at my local club we play 5 points of Raid as a standard game.

Before I rush out (well click on to ID Gaming) and buy the fleet box set, I'm just after some advise from people who have played with a shadow fleet in low PL games, do they play well?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Right Hand of God]

Stonehorse you are as mecurial as ever. Shadows and Vorlons traditionally have trouble at low PL games. Although the introduction of a battle level ship may help. I would suggest you try a game using proxy models to see if it suits you before you go ahead.

Send me a PM a mutual aquaintance may be able to help you out

 

[Locutus9956]

Shadows and Vorlons at low PLs I found actually did quite well under Armageddon rules for the simple reason that at lower PLs most other races actually struggle to field enough sheer firepower to really counter the Shadow and Vorlon ships sheer toughness if the shadow/vorlon player shoehorned in one of the big boys (Light cruiser/hunter) Of course it did help that most people at our local club tend not field swarm fleets though (with the exception of the Drazi player, but theyre DRAZI, theyre pretty much a swarm fleet by default )

 

[angelus2000]

Still that way. Shadow scouts now have higher stealth and shields and they're FAST, they cleaned up shadow movement quite a bit in the wording. Beams are a worry due to Pinning though. Shadow fighters got a bump too. Can't say about Vorlons, but I'd imagine its similiar for them as well.

 

[Stonehorse]

Stonehorse you are as mecurial as ever. Shadows and Vorlons traditionally have trouble at low PL games. Although the introduction of a battle level ship may help. I would suggest you try a game using proxy models to see if it suits you before you go ahead.

Send me a PM a mutual aquaintance may be able to help you out

Some say mercurial, I say keeping thing new and exciting. I may have the counters some where to try out.

Gather the Mutual aquaintance is meglos, he's sent me a PM. Thanks for helping.

 

[DrSeltsam]

Hi Stonehorse ,

can't tell you about the 2nd ( we still do not have any information when it will be available in germany ) but both - Vorlon and Shadows - had problems in low PL games because of the few ship designs available.

From what i hear and read about 2nd Vorlons are a little better suited now because they got a skirmish ship and good fighters. It sounds that the bigger ships still pack massive firepower. I believe you are still fu**** up if you get out-maneuvered but that's the deal.

Shadows have the scout ( not a real combat monster in 1ed :roll: im curious about the changes in 2ed and if/how it was improved ) and the Shadow fighters not worth buying.

In a low PL game Vorlon-vs.-Shadow i would bet my money on the Vorlons. The Shaodws get better if the can use any Stellar debris for cover - but you can't count on that as it is Scenario specific what/if you get Stellar debirs at all. The Vorlons in general have better weapon range and good fighters.

Like already suggested before use some proxies and try a few games to see if you like their style / fleet list.
Hopes this helps a bit !

 

[Burger]

at my local club we play 5 points of Raid as a standard game.

Get them to try out 1 point Armageddon instead. It really works, honest!
(Though you might want to house-rule the FAP splitting rules back to those in Armageddon - far superior IMO)

 

[thePirv]

at my local club we play 5 points of Raid as a standard game.

Get them to try out 1 point Armageddon instead. It really works, honest!
(Though you might want to house-rule the FAP splitting rules back to those in Armageddon - far superior IMO)

I gotta agree with Burger. A 1 point Armageddon game is fantastic as opposed to 5 Raid since it allows players to take a ship at every level and limits the swarm fleets somewhat.

Gonna have to start a petition to move all official tourneys to a 1 point Arma. Who's with me?

 

[Da Boss]

Still that way. Shadow scouts now have higher stealth and shields and they're FAST, they cleaned up shadow movement quite a bit in the wording. Beams are a worry due to Pinning though. Shadow fighters got a bump too. Can't say about Vorlons, but I'd imagine its similiar for them as well.

Shadows need to be careful of telepaths as well. This is also slightly worse now in campaigns as the Shadows no longer have flight computers and so can have lower CQ than 4.

The fighters are still dire and overly expensive - especially when compared to the far superior Vorlon ones (who also get an extra fighter per point)

The Ships are good.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

i can under stand why the vorlon fighters are 3 per wing, because they have no other way of getting them. but their is no reason for shadow fighters to be that bad, or expensive

 

[Stonehorse]

i can under stand why the vorlon fighters are 3 per wing, because they have no other way of getting them. but their is no reason for shadow fighters to be that bad, or expensive

Shadow Fighters are expensive, but as they come with Shields and a high Hull value are more than likely to weather the storm of Anti Fighter and even Advanced Anti Fighter. As they have to split the dice before they roll it can make Shadow Fighter swarms great at hurting Capital ships... just be aware of enemy fighters as our's aren't that great at Dogfighting.

 

[Burger]

Shields (like all other traits) don't help against anti-fighter fire.

 

[Stonehorse]

Shields (like all other traits) don't help against anti-fighter fire.

I can't see where it says that.

Anti-fighter say it ignores Dodge.

Further reading of page 28 regarding Anti-Fighter and Advanced Anti-Fighter traits says 'nor will they (the ship with anti fighter) be affected by other traits on fighters, sush as stealth'

The way that is worded it reads as if it is meaning anything that can stop the AD being rolled can not work. Shields allow the AD to be rolled, Shields don't affect the ship with anti-fighter like stealth does. The wording seems to be against anything that affects the ship with the anti-fighter or Advanced Anti-Fighter trait.

I fail to see how Shields can't be used against incoming fire from anti fighter, yet can stand up to the likes of Beams :?

Think Mongoose need to clear this one up.

 

[Greg Smith]

Further reading says 'nor will they (the ship with anti fighter) be effected by other traits on fighters, sush as stealth' p.

Actually the subject in that sentence is Anti-fighter and Advanced Anti-fighter. So AF and AAF cannot be affected by traits on fighters.

 

[Stonehorse]

Further reading says 'nor will they (the ship with anti fighter) be effected by other traits on fighters, sush as stealth' p.

Actually the subject in that sentence is Anti-fighter and Advanced Anti-fighter. So AF and AAF cannot be affected by traits on fighters.

Sorry, I must not have made it clear enough. I'll go back and edit my comment.

 

[Right Hand of God]

It's dark eldar time all over again isn't it StoneHorse (snigger)

 

[Stonehorse]

It's dark eldar time all over again isn't it StoneHorse (snigger)

So glad I stopped playing 40K... the amount of confussion caused due to bad wording was horrid.

I can see where people are coming from with the view that it ignores Shields, but then why does it go out of it's way to mention Dodge, when the second half can be seen as a catch all for all traits? I can see why it does say 'the flight is destroyed' as only one ship has Shields, so it would be a bit long winded in saying apart from those with the shields trait, as their shields go down by one for every hit caused.

 

[Greg Smith]

The other thing to read is the wording of the shield rule, which says it stops hits. Anti-fighter isn't a weapon and doesn't inflict hits.

 

[Stonehorse]

So if it's not a hit, then what is it :wink:

I can see that, and I'm now thinking that the meaning of the rules is that Shields don't work against AT or AAT. Which seems a bit redundent giving shields to a fighter which is meant to go annoy capitol ships. Now I'm thinking that Shadow fighters are not worth the Patrol level, where as before I thought they may have a small advantage to warrent their expense.

They aren't meant to go into Dogfights, and they sure can't gang up in Dogfights as they are only 2 in a wing, and against anything with AF and/or AAF they have lost one of their major strengths.

Glad the rest od the Shadow fleet is good at what they are meant to do.

 

[zulu01]

Just got the books and in general, like the 2e changes to the Shadow ships. The new Young varient really makes playing the fleet more viable, especially in a campaign and it still packs a nice punch.

What worries me is the "pinning" effect of beam weapons. A minbari fleet can easily do 19 points of dammage with a triple dammage precise beam from one ship. I am afraid that Shadow / Minbari battles will end up very lop sided.

Anyone tried it yet under 2E?