Lots of Dice and a little Cepheus Engine, too

[theodis]

Familiarity and dice availability are red-herrings. Modern boardgamers will have played with lots of unusual dice by the time they make it to Tabletop RPGs.

The obvious goal should be “More Traveller-like than Traveller is now”. What that means in terms of distribution, average, and value range is an open question.

“Most popular and successful for Traveller” isn’t a serious metric either. With Traveller having been passed up for Stars Without Number in terms of popularity, the things that made Traveller popular before aren’t necessarily going to be what makes Traveller popular now. We should have a serious think about what would make Traveller an outright better game that other people would enjoy picking up and playing. What is the absolute best possible version of Traveller? What does that mean for the dice you would use to play it?

So basically you are saying that

1. one of the most important arguments (familiarity) is invalid and therefore to be discarded and
2. you don't have the foggiest idea what constitutes better in the sense of "more Traveller-like".

That's no real foundation for a discussion. You realize that, right?

Also, there is a reason for Stars Without NUmber doing comparatively well: It caters squarely to the D20/Pathfinder crowd. They don't have to relearn mechanics just to play space opera. And there are _lots_ of them - easily more than for all other RPGs combined. And here we are again. Familiarity is not only no red-herring, it is of utmost importance.

 

[rust2]

Also, there is a reason for Stars Without NUmber doing comparatively well: It caters squarely to the D20/Pathfinder crowd. They don't have to relearn mechanics just to play space opera. And there are _lots_ of them - easily more than for all other RPGs combined. And here we are again. Familiarity is not only no red-herring, it is of utmost importance.

And it also helps Stars Without Number that there is a free edition of the core rules as a PDF. I know of many people (including me) who downloaded the free edition to see what the game is like but then decided not to play it.

 

[simonh]

Also, there is a reason for Stars Without NUmber doing comparatively well: It caters squarely to the D20/Pathfinder crowd. They don't have to relearn mechanics just to play space opera. And there are _lots_ of them - easily more than for all other RPGs combined. And here we are again. Familiarity is not only no red-herring, it is of utmost importance.

Exactly right, familiarity with something people already like is unbelievably valuable. It's OSR style D&D in space and that sells because people who already know they like OSR/D&D already know they will like at least half of what it is. The fact that it has the most creakingly ancient, retrograde core mechanics ever just isn't a problem. For that audience it's an advantage!

Simon Hibbs

 

[-Daniel-]

Is there a reason no one is mentioning this development on the CotI boards?

In my case, yes - I stopped visiting CotI years ago, too much hostility there towards Mongoose Traveller. :roll:

Just Mongoose? I go there every once in a while (once a year kind of thing) to check some of the item designs but gave up being active because of the environment overall. Not just towards Mongoose either. It is an uncomfortable place to be overall in my opinion.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Familiarity and dice availability are red-herrings. Modern boardgamers will have played with lots of unusual dice by the time they make it to Tabletop RPGs.

You're addressing my incidental examples, not my actual points. I'll try to be clearer.

1. What criteria do you propose to distinguish between 'better' and 'worse' mechanics, setting, dice, etc for Traveller? You talk a lot about 'best' but don't ever really say what you mean by that. How do you distinguish what is better or best? I gave some example criteria, which you dismissed. So what are your criteria?

2. This point is crucial. I'll repeat "Other dice and systems have been tried - D20 in both TNE and T20, 4D6 in T4, 3D6 with GURPS but none have stuck. The dominant Traveller systems are still based on 2D6. If you want to move to a different die mechanic, perhaps your starting point should be figuring out why 2D6 is still the most popular and most commercially successful for Traveller. If you can't answer that question, you're never going to be able to figure out how to make an alternative die choice even more successful when others have failed." If you can't do that, any attempt you make is almost certainly doomed to failure.

If you can't articulate what you mean by 'better' you're never going to get anywhere. If you don't know why 2D6 has historically always won, you'll never figure out how to beat it.

I would rather start with what characteristics Traveller players want their dice to have and go from there. No one seems to want to engage the subject of using better dice seriously.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

I’m more inclined to think that they’d be offended by Traveller canon putting planets where they don’t belong. Who wants to go to a star system only to find out that the planet they just read about in the paper a month ago isn’t there, because some other asinine planet with no relation to the real one is?

Most people don't seem to care.

If your contention was true, Traveller 2300 with it's far more up to date star maps would be more popular than OTU Traveller. It isn't and never has been. Several alternate Traveller settings with more realistic astrography also exist and are niche products. More realistic world and star generation systems are much less used than the classic style system. Realism of this kind just flat out isn't a commercial factor with respect to Traveller. This has been proven over and over again. TNE had more up to date technology assumptions and it's long gone.

It's not that realistic star maps are a bad thing, if you're doing a new game maybe they'd be a good idea because you have no established expectations you would be breaking, but as a matter of fact given the choice between Traveller with up to date maps and Traveller with the old mechanics and maps, the large majority fans choose and buy products for the latter.

So you’re arguing Traveller fans would rather Traveller stop being relevant and die off than modernize and become socially relevant enough to have new players come into the game? If that’s true, why should anyone care what they think?

 

[fusor]

I would rather start with what characteristics Traveller players want their dice to have and go from there. No one seems to want to engage the subject of using better dice seriously.

Your flawed assumption is that Traveller players are somehow just "putting up" with 2d6 and would rather use another kind of dice, when there's no evidence for that whatsoever.

You're coming along telling everyone that 2d6 isn't "the best dice" to use, and you seem to be incapable of expressing exactly why they're not the "best dice" or what parameters should be used to even define what the "best dice" should be.

If you can't even do that, how on earth do you expect anyone to "engage the subject of using better dice seriously"?

And you've also spent what, five pages hijacking a thread about a totally different subject when you could have just gone and started a new one.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Familiarity and dice availability are red-herrings. Modern boardgamers will have played with lots of unusual dice by the time they make it to Tabletop RPGs.

The obvious goal should be “More Traveller-like than Traveller is now”. What that means in terms of distribution, average, and value range is an open question.

“Most popular and successful for Traveller” isn’t a serious metric either. With Traveller having been passed up for Stars Without Number in terms of popularity, the things that made Traveller popular before aren’t necessarily going to be what makes Traveller popular now. We should have a serious think about what would make Traveller an outright better game that other people would enjoy picking up and playing. What is the absolute best possible version of Traveller? What does that mean for the dice you would use to play it?

So basically you are saying that

1. one of the most important arguments (familiarity) is invalid and therefore to be discarded and
2. you don't have the foggiest idea what constitutes better in the sense of "more Traveller-like".

That's no real foundation for a discussion. You realize that, right?

Also, there is a reason for Stars Without NUmber doing comparatively well: It caters squarely to the D20/Pathfinder crowd. They don't have to relearn mechanics just to play space opera. And there are _lots_ of them - easily more than for all other RPGs combined. And here we are again. Familiarity is not only no red-herring, it is of utmost importance.

Familiarity is invalid because modern people are familiar with a great many kinds of dice from a great many kinds of boardgame. It makes no difference to them which type of die it is. The manufacturing argument is also out due to modern economics and manufacturing techniques. As is the “economies of scale” argument, as well as the “on-hand” argument. “Because it’s what Traveller has always used” is out because the original reasons for choosing those dice are invalid, as well as because other systems are beating Traveller in the same genre. Without a compelling argument why 2d6 produces the correct distribution, average, and range of values for the best possible “Traveller” feel, the heart of my argument isn’t being addressed.

And yes, I don’t have the foggiest idea of what constitutes “better” for other people. It would be nice if people would contribute and say what they thought would be better about this or that distribution, this or that average value, this or that range of values, and so on. But they haven’t.

Given that Savage Worlds currently outranks Stars Without Number, I don’t think it’s the d20s. It’s not about familiarity.

 

[theodis]

So you’re arguing Traveller fans would rather Traveller stop being relevant and die off than modernize and become socially relevant enough to have new players come into the game? If that’s true, why should anyone care what they think?

Because they are ones that bring the money in? The attempt to bring a large enough crowd of new players in to compensate for the aggravated old ones that just left is a gamble - a gamble that a small publisher can't afford to loose. Traveller especially is notorious for having a long lasting, loyal (and yes, old) fan base. These people know and love Traveller just the way it is for decades and for a large part are in positions to buy new stuff without flinching. You don't risk that without good reason. It doesn't help that the designer(s) of Traveller aren't exactly young, either.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

I would rather start with what characteristics Traveller players want their dice to have and go from there. No one seems to want to engage the subject of using better dice seriously.

Your flawed assumption is that Traveller players are somehow just "putting up" with 2d6 and would rather use another kind of dice, when there's no evidence for that whatsoever.

You're coming along telling everyone that 2d6 isn't "the best dice" to use, and you seem to be incapable of expressing exactly why they're not the "best dice" or what parameters should be used to even define what the "best dice" should be.

If you can't even do that, how on earth do you expect anyone to "engage the subject of using better dice seriously"?

And you've also spent what, five pages hijacking a thread about a totally different subject when you could have just gone and started a new one.

No, I’m assuming that they were chosen out of a manufacturing and availability justification that is no longer true, and that they are still being used mostly out of habit rather than any inherent superiority. And, if Traveller is going to be socially relevant in the future, then it needs to reconsider its justifications for everything, so it can become the best possible version of Traveller, and successfully compete on its own merits.

 

[theodis]

And yes, I don’t have the foggiest idea of what constitutes “better” for other people. It would be nice if people would contribute and say what they thought would be better about this or that distribution, this or that average value, this or that range of values, and so on. But they haven’t.

Given that Savage Worlds currently outranks Stars Without Number, I don’t think it’s the d20s. It’s not about familiarity.

Granted. It's about taste. there are many out there:

D100: Granular, intuitive, bland.
D20: the same, but easier to handle.
Dice pool: you got to juggle a large number of dice (could be fun), also - no math, just counting.
2dX, 3dX etc.: distributes nicely around an average value. Can be hard to eyeball the DMs right, though.
d4 to d12: you get to roll all of the shiny polygons you own. Also, easy to understand and not too granular.

In general
roll to TN: roll high is intuitive...
roll under: ...but this works better in D100

So there you are: level of granularity, roll high vs. low, dice pool, flat vs. normal, multiple polygons vs. just one, counting vs. number crunching.

You'd be hard pressed on finding a large number of people who agree which is best here. The possibilites are endless and the Traveller crowd by and large found their way.

 

[fusor]

And, if Traveller is going to be socially relevant in the future, then it needs to reconsider its justifications for everything, so it can become the best possible version of Traveller, and successfully compete on its own merits.

You're assuming that the old guard cares about it being "socially relevant". They just want a game that works for them, that's like the game they've always played.

The best and most interesting versions of the game IMO have been the ones that the old guard - both among the fanbase and designers - didn't really want anything to do with and that struck off more in their own direction: GURPS Traveller, TNE, and 1248. It sounds rather morbid, but frankly I think the old guard - and Marc Miller - will have to die off before the game can really be allowed to change. And as time goes on, they will. Whether Traveller's still even around by that point is another matter.

 

[-Daniel-]

While I do find some of what Tenacious-Techhunter says interesting, I believe we are being somewhat funny thinking the dice mechanic is what will help keep Traveller "socially relevant" in the future. Playing Pen and Paper games even at its largest era is just a small niche market. The reality is, if Traveller wanted to be relevant on any real level it would have given up the pen and paper a long time ago and shifted to some sort of computer game. For Traveller to retain relevance within the very small, niche marketplace that is Pen and Paper it will need to hold onto and earn as many of the new fans as it can. And I just can't see the die mechanic as the one thing that will really make a difference either way.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Make no mistake, I wasn’t purporting that the chosen dice were the only thing that needed to change... rather, if we want Traveller to genuinely thrive again, we need to rethink the whole thing from the ground up, dice included. Chanting a whole bunch of nonsense that may have been true once-upon-a-time, but is completely invalid now, does nothing to prepare Traveller for the future.

 

[fusor]

I think at this point this particular horse has not only been killed by extreme flogging, it's also been flayed, had the flesh boiled off its bones, and any residual DNA leftover has been used to create a new horse that also has at the very least been flogged to death all over again.

 

[theodis]

I think at this point this particular horse has not only been killed by extreme flogging, it's also been flayed, had the flesh boiled off its bones, and any residual DNA leftover has been used to create a new horse that also has at the very least been flogged to death all over again.

Indeed.

 

[rust2]

By the way, does anyone still remember that I originally started this thread to discuss the Cepheus Engine - just saying ...

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Is there something more to say about it?

 

[theodis]

By the way, does anyone still remember that I originally started this thread to discuss the Cepheus Engine - just saying ...

Yes, the memory is clouded but still...
Maybe we should start a new thread, "Cepheus Engine Discussion" or something. I'm in the middle of nowhere right now otherwise I would have started it myself.

 

[fusor]

Is there something more to say about it?

Anything that is left to say would just be drowned out by your derailing.

At the very least it would have been better for you to have started another thread for your dice crusade. Then you could be like Tom and post all the crap you want to on that and be ignored by everyone else. If there was some actual effective moderation around here (which it seems there isn't) then one of the mods could have either split your dice derailment off into its own thread ages ago, or told you to stop derailing this one.

But then around here it seems that most threads longer than about two pages are just long arguments anyway.