middenface
Cosmic Mongoose
Soo the original point of the thread was...?
Sheesh
Sheesh
Lots of Dice and a little Cepheus Engine, too
- Thread starter rust2
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Or everyone else is content with the way things are. But for argument's sake. historical justifications for 2d6 weren't even valid 20 years ago. D&D predates Traveller by 3 years and always used every polygon from d4 to d20. It just happened that the old GDW staff - coming from CoSims - really _liked_ their d6es. Also, they came in handy when using hex maps.Tenacious-Techhunter said:
But if you're interested in alternative dice methods useful and fitting for Traveller, I suggest something along the lines of Savage Worlds, Cortex Classic or Entropic Gaming System. All these systems use die types from d4 to d12 for attributes and skills and the latter two combine these for rolls. Very flexible and easy _and_ it maps very well to the Traveller skill ladder (actually to the attributes as well, since they really are only DMs from -3 to +3).
Also, you want to take a good and hard look at Winchell Chung's "Atomic Rocket" page, Zozer Games' "Orbital" and the "Expanse" series and update the OTU from there. Of course, you'll then have to deal with the problems every reboot faces. Will it draw in new folks? What do the old folks think about it?
There are reasons for sticking with the tried and true. Statistical probability and being up to date isn't everything. Ease of use, convenience and above all familiarity are values in itself. As a side note - these are the main reasons we still have the large steering wheel in our cars right in front of us. There are solutions that are far less accident-prone, but would require to re-educate - well - everyone.
Well, it's a good system, and Flynn just released it in docx format for easier hacking.
On to the dice:
2D6 offers a much more predictable spread of probabilities than d20 and other systems, which is important in a game where combat is lethal and fast. It also cuts down on bookkeeping since players are generally only going to get two mods (skill and characteristic) to the roll (not a function of the dice, but d20 games need lots of mods because players are less likely to hit TNs).
On to the dice:
2D6 offers a much more predictable spread of probabilities than d20 and other systems, which is important in a game where combat is lethal and fast. It also cuts down on bookkeeping since players are generally only going to get two mods (skill and characteristic) to the roll (not a function of the dice, but d20 games need lots of mods because players are less likely to hit TNs).
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
Yes, but why is the triangular distribution better than the curvier distribution of 3 or more dice? What are Traveller players gaining with a triangular distribution that they can’t get with an additional die?
Prime_Evil
Emperor Mongoose
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
It depends what you want from Traveller - if you see Traveller primarily as a 'retro-SF' game that simulates the tropes of classic Golden Age science fiction, then it is not 'outdated' as it simulates those tropes very well. You are correct that this is not "realistic" from a scientific standpoint and cannot be regarded as "Hard SF" from the standpoint of contemporary readers (whatever that loaded term means), but that is missing the point. The OTU is designed around the "Imperial SF" tropes of classic works such as Isaac Asimov, Poul Anderson, Andre Norton, H.Beam Piper, and E.C. Tubb. Yes, all of these are dated from our standpoint in the 21st century. However, they still loom large in the way that the general public perceives the SF genre - most cinematic and television depictions of SF draw upon the works of this era than on the works of more recent authors.
It is certainly possible to update the setting of Traveller to reflect the sensibilities of the "New Space Opera" pioneered by authors such as Iain M. Banks, Peter F. Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds, Charles Stross, Neal Asher, Ian McDonald, et al. The 2300AD universe is halfway there, although it is based more upon the quasi-Hard SF of the mid-1980s (which was still in denial about the implications of the cyberpunk movement). If that is more your taste, I strongly recommend that you check out the upcoming Mindjammer Traveller sourcebook, as it will provide ideas on how to adapt Traveller to a more contemporary SF setting.
Alternatively, you could download the modifiable version of the Cepheus Engine and make the changes yourself:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/187941/Cepheus-Engine-SRD-Modifiable-Version
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Just the thought of being in a spinning hamster cage makes me sick.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
Prime_Evil said:
I never said that “obsolete” was entirely undesirable... just that it’s very niche. Additionally, I’m not clear why those after a retro-futuristic nostalgia fix would need, much less want, a new version of Traveller. Both things mean Traveller can’t grow that way.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
phavoc said:fusor said:Long forgotten, apparently.
"Hey, we released the Cepheus Engine, check it out!"
-->
"D6 ARE WRONG!".
Honestly, can't you see how one leads to the other?
+1
I never said d6es are wrong; I said that we should seriously think about if anything is right about them in a modern context before deciding that they are, in fact, the best choice for Traveller, moving forward.
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
Best according to what metrics though? It's meaningless without providing a way to distinguish bad, good, better, best. But what constitutes better will vary depending on your objectives. What are the priorities?
Familiarity, backwards compatibility, dice availability? Those priorities will tend towards keeping 2D6.
Finer granularity, flat probability distribution, singe die instead of multiple dice on each roll? Those priorities will probably point towards D20.
Ultimately choice of dice only matters in the context of the system they serve though. Other dice and systems have been tried - D20 in both TNE and T20, 4D6 in T4, but none have stuck. The dominant Traveller systems are still based on 2D6. If you want to move to a different die mechanic, perhaps your starting point should be figuring out why 2D6 is still the most popular and most commercially successful for Traveller. If you can't answer that question, you're never going to be able to figure out how to make an alternative die choice even more successful when others have failed.
Simon Hibbs
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
Familiarity and dice availability are red-herrings. Modern boardgamers will have played with lots of unusual dice by the time they make it to Tabletop RPGs.
The obvious goal should be “More Traveller-like than Traveller is now”. What that means in terms of distribution, average, and value range is an open question.
“Most popular and successful for Traveller” isn’t a serious metric either. With Traveller having been passed up for Stars Without Number in terms of popularity, the things that made Traveller popular before aren’t necessarily going to be what makes Traveller popular now. We should have a serious think about what would make Traveller an outright better game that other people would enjoy picking up and playing. What is the absolute best possible version of Traveller? What does that mean for the dice you would use to play it?
The obvious goal should be “More Traveller-like than Traveller is now”. What that means in terms of distribution, average, and value range is an open question.
“Most popular and successful for Traveller” isn’t a serious metric either. With Traveller having been passed up for Stars Without Number in terms of popularity, the things that made Traveller popular before aren’t necessarily going to be what makes Traveller popular now. We should have a serious think about what would make Traveller an outright better game that other people would enjoy picking up and playing. What is the absolute best possible version of Traveller? What does that mean for the dice you would use to play it?
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
So you want the game to be more "Traveller-like than Traveller is now", but you have no idea what that actually means. Gotcha.
Frankly, Traveller isn't going to change in any meaningful way. Whenever change has been attempted, the grognards have risen up and fought it until the change was revoked (see TNE, for example). If you want Traveller to be "better" (for completely arbitrary and indeterminate values of "better"), you're wanting it to be something that it isn't, and you're better off abandoning it and finding a game more immediately suited to your desires.
While Traveller was once the only SF game on the block, now it's just one of many, and people have the option of playing other games that are closer to what they're looking for instead of trying to change Traveller into that. If that means more people leave Traveller than it gains, then so be it.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
You are right about the odds calculations, but wrong about the competency; a normal distribution over the same value range would be much more competent than a triangular distribution.
Here’s the thing about the odds calculations, though... we have AnyDice now; not to mention harder stuff like Wolfram Alpha; who needs to calculate odds by hand anymore???
Here’s the thing about the odds calculations, though... we have AnyDice now; not to mention harder stuff like Wolfram Alpha; who needs to calculate odds by hand anymore???
Jeff Hopper
Mongoose
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
Constantine Thomas, is that really you?
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
Considering that the game itself has been around since 1977, they may have just gotten it right the first time. Thirty-nine years is pretty damn good longevity for a RPG.
Nattering nimrods of negativity like yourself are actually more of a threat to Traveller in particular and gaming in general. People read your argumentative screeds and decide that the player base for Traveller is a bunch of jackasses and so get turned off from even trying the game, or any other RPG.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
I’m more inclined to think that they’d be offended by Traveller canon putting planets where they don’t belong. Who wants to go to a star system only to find out that the planet they just read about in the paper a month ago isn’t there, because some other asinine planet with no relation to the real one is?
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
You're addressing my incidental examples, not my actual points. I'll try to be clearer.
1. What criteria do you propose to distinguish between 'better' and 'worse' mechanics, setting, dice, etc for Traveller? You talk a lot about 'best' but don't ever really say what you mean by that. How do you distinguish what is better or best? I gave some example criteria, which you dismissed. So what are your criteria?
2. This point is crucial. I'll repeat "Other dice and systems have been tried - D20 in both TNE and T20, 4D6 in T4, 3D6 with GURPS but none have stuck. The dominant Traveller systems are still based on 2D6. If you want to move to a different die mechanic, perhaps your starting point should be figuring out why 2D6 is still the most popular and most commercially successful for Traveller. If you can't answer that question, you're never going to be able to figure out how to make an alternative die choice even more successful when others have failed." If you can't do that, any attempt you make is almost certainly doomed to failure.
If you can't articulate what you mean by 'better' you're never going to get anywhere. If you don't know why 2D6 has historically always won, you'll never figure out how to beat it.
Simon Hibbs
Tenacious-Techhunter said:
Most people don't seem to care.
If your contention was true, Traveller 2300 with it's far more up to date star maps would be more popular than OTU Traveller. It isn't and never has been. Several alternate Traveller settings with more realistic astrography also exist and are niche products. More realistic world and star generation systems are much less used than the classic style system. Realism of this kind just flat out isn't a commercial factor with respect to Traveller. This has been proven over and over again. TNE had more up to date technology assumptions and it's long gone.
It's not that realistic star maps are a bad thing, if you're doing a new game maybe they'd be a good idea because you have no established expectations you would be breaking, but as a matter of fact given the choice between Traveller with up to date maps and Traveller with the old mechanics and maps, the large majority fans choose and buy products for the latter.
Simon Hibbs
