LOS and Fire Zone Question

[Qapla]

I might be over complicating this but, when you have different models that can draw different lines of sight to models in a unit is how is it resolved?

Example:

In the example above a USMC fire team is firing on an MEA Infantry Squad. All have LOS to the FZ except for Sarge who is keeping his head covered. in the above not all of the MEA and in LOS to all of the Marines.

CPL: Clear LOS to D, both E and F are in Cover
M249:Clear to A, B, C, and D; E and F are in Cover
M203: Clear to C and D, E and F are in Cover
M16: Clear to A, B, C, D is obscured, E and F are in Cover

Now with the 203 and the CPL not being able to see A or B would their Damage Dice be able to effect those models? Or how would you know whose dice effect which model.

If part of a unit can see part of another and the other part can see the same and more how do you know that the first isn't damaging what it can't see. Or does it not matter.

 

[The Old Soldier]

I'm going to give you the quick and dirty answer. This is the way it should be done but many feel they have to over complacate it.........

As long as at least one model can be seen the firing unit may create a FZ.

All the dice are rolled and 1s are removed. The rest of the dice are allocated to the target troops, with the closest to the firing unit being allocated first.

The only time this matters is when you are firing special weapons with special rules. What you didn't show is where the FZ is placed, which could make a difference. Roll em all together. The only models that couldn't be a target is those not seen by any firing model.

 

[docrailgun]

Unfortunately, that's not true. A model can only damage a unit it can see, unless it is firing a weapon that causes damage in a burst. It's certainly easier to do things your way, but it's not supported by the rules.

I'm going to give you the quick and dirty answer. This is the way it should be done but many feel they have to over complacate it.........

As long as at least one model can be seen the firing unit may create a FZ.

All the dice are rolled and 1s are removed. The rest of the dice are allocated to the target troops, with the closest to the firing unit being allocated first.

The only time this matters is when you are firing special weapons with special rules. What you didn't show is where the FZ is placed, which could make a difference. Roll em all together. The only models that couldn't be a target is those not seen by any firing model.

 

[cordas]

Actually it is suported by the rules, its pretty much exactly what is said in the rules. You are right in saying a model can only shoot at a unit it has LOS to, thus your sarg in your example can't shoot as he has no LOS to any model in the FZ.

Yes its dirty and sometimes a little bit counter intuative, but its quick and fast which is the idea behind pretty much the whole game. The best way to understand it is, if it sounds complicated then simplify it. Use the lowest common denominator at all times, if 1 target model is in the clear to 1 shooting guy then he gains no cover or obscurement bonus. Just remember with this what comes round goes around..... It may sound really nasty when you are being shot at, but its equally nasty to your opponent when you shoot at him.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Thank you Cordas.

 

[cordas]

For once we agree :lol:

 

[The Old Soldier]

We really agree most of the time, we just see things from two different perspectives that could both be valid. I blame MP for murky rule writing.

 

[cordas]

LOL

 

[Bondarus]

I'm with Cordas and the Old soldier on this one too.

 

[Captain_Nemo]

Cordas and TOS describe it the way I demo it. I'm with them.

Wow! Paraphrasing part of the Hornblower TV series

"...three men who could not agree on the color of an orange! "

 

[Paladin]

For once we agree :lol:

[checks to see if the moon turned to blood]

 

[BuShips]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This topic needs to be made into a "sticky" so that it has extra armor to save it from being deleted. :wink:

Btw, I agree as well.

 

[Valen is my name]

For once we agree :lol:

[checks to see if the moon turned to blood]

i think tomorrow is sunday, and the day after that is a sunday and the day after that is a sunday, what do you know, its a month of sundays!

 

[The Old Soldier]

Fine with me, I hate Mondays.

 

[Valen is my name]

mondays exist for only one reason - to spoil your weekend

 

[Arcadia]

I might be over complicating this but, when you have different models that can draw different lines of sight to models in a unit is how is it resolved?

Example:

In the example above a USMC fire team is firing on an MEA Infantry Squad. All have LOS to the FZ except for Sarge who is keeping his head covered. in the above not all of the MEA and in LOS to all of the Marines.

CPL: Clear LOS to D, both E and F are in Cover
M249:Clear to A, B, C, and D; E and F are in Cover
M203: Clear to C and D, E and F are in Cover
M16: Clear to A, B, C, D is obscured, E and F are in Cover

Now with the 203 and the CPL not being able to see A or B would their Damage Dice be able to effect those models? Or how would you know whose dice effect which model.

If part of a unit can see part of another and the other part can see the same and more how do you know that the first isn't damaging what it can't see. Or does it not matter.

From Qapla example how many dice get rolled and what are the cover and obscured bonus?

M16 – D6
M249 – 2 D6 (with ready action)
Cpl – D6
M203 (not grenade) – D6
Sgt – nada

Total roll dice 5 D6 for suppression 7 D6. OK?????

Model Bonus
A no
B no
C no
D ??? Obscured from M16 only???
E +2 to Hill and armor
F +2 to Hill and armor

Arcadia.

 

[cordas]

A,B,C and D gain no bonuses.

E and F can can calim being in cover as they are in a terrain feature that grants cover (ruins)

You could also argue that D gains cover if you say all the gree on the ruins building is bushes, this would give C obscurement as no shooting model can get a clear LOS to it as M203 can only see part of the model past the greenery.

This is why its important to classify all terrain before the start of the battle, as a rule of thumb we do this every game (even for pieces we use regularly) and anything we forgot to classify before the game doesn't count.

 

[Arcadia]

A,B,C and D gain no bonuses.

E and F can can calim being in cover as they are in a terrain feature that grants cover (ruins)

You could also argue that D gains cover if you say all the gree on the ruins building is bushes, this would give C obscurement as no shooting model can get a clear LOS to it as M203 can only see part of the model past the greenery.

This is why its important to classify all terrain before the start of the battle, as a rule of thumb we do this every game (even for pieces we use regularly) and anything we forgot to classify before the game doesn't count.

OK, and the rolling dice???

 

[seanwalsh]

I wanted to ask before, and now that there is a great picture, I will.
So it seems the basic rule is to roll all the unit's dice together. Old Soldier noted an exception for special weapons with special rules. Since many of the weapons have special rules, I thought I'd ask a couple of questions about how people are dealing with those exceptions.
1. Assuming a Ready Action had been given to the M249 prior to firing, how is its "forward facing" determined? If the Fire Zone is partially outside the M249 forward facing, how does that affect the M249? If the centre of the Fire Zone is outside the M249 forward facing, how does that affect the M249? If the Fire Zone is entirely outside the M249 forward facing, can the M249 fire? If the M249 can fire, does it count as moving so that the M249 loses its bonus dice?
2. Assuming the Fire Zone covers targets A, B, C, and D, and the range <= 16", where does the M203 grenade hit?
3. If we change the example so the firing unit is SAS and the M203 on the roof carries an M109 instead and assuming the Fire Zone covers targets A, B, C, and D, can the M109 roll its damage dice against target A?

 

[The Old Soldier]

I must be tired, I don't really understand your questions.

As for the rolling dice seperately and determining if certain dice are rolled seperately see page 18, last paragraph of the Rule Book. It gives a clarification that isn't in the rule sheet. Hell, I didn't even know about it till I look this evening.

Remember the rules on the card of the unit may have extra rules that break the normal way of handling FZs.