Lone Wolf and The Planes of Existence

blue crane

Mongoose
Hi there!

Will the 'Planes' be covered in the MoM supplement? If not, could someone please help me with regards to understanding the nature of the 'Planes of Existence'?

We all know that the 'Daziarn Plane' is much the same as the 'Astral Plane' - but what about the others? I suppose that like many of you, I too own the 'Dungeons & Dragons Manual of The Planes'. For those of you who do have it, what exactly are the other planes in terms of the planar categories of the above-mentioned book? For instance, is the 'Plane of Light' an 'Energy Plane'? Is the 'Plane of Air' an 'Elemental Plane'? And so on.

Thanking you in advance and kind regards,
Blue Crane
 

WinterHawk

Mongoose
There is a planar layover in the corner of the Map of Magnamund provided with the Core Game Book. This layover is designed just like the one presented in the D20 Manual of the Planes.
 

Winter Wolf

Mongoose
I hope that Mongoose get around to doing a source book on the Dazairn one day and that if they do it's a big one. There is so much material you could produce for it but I can't see it justifying more than one book from a business point of view. So a giant book on the Dazairn at some point please guys. :)
 

Paido

Mongoose
Yeah, a sourcebook on the Daziarn would be damn great! As to how far Magic of Magnamund will include some info on the planes, I have no idea ...

blue crane said:
We all know that the 'Daziarn Plane' is much the same as the 'Astral Plane' - but what about the others? I suppose that like many of you, I too own the 'Dungeons & Dragons Manual of The Planes'. For those of you who do have it, what exactly are the other planes in terms of the planar categories of the above-mentioned book? For instance, is the 'Plane of Light' an 'Energy Plane'? Is the 'Plane of Air' an 'Elemental Plane'? And so on.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure how far the planes of Aon really match the standard DnD planes ... Of course I agree that there are similarities between the Daziarn and the Astral Plane, and probably between the elemental planes of both cosmologies. But the Plane of Light, for example, is not an "Energy Plane". It is the home plane of the good deities, as the "Plane of Darkness" is home to Naar and the other evil gods. If you can, have a look at the Grandmaster gamebook "The Curse of Naar" - as far as I know, it is set completely on that plane. Other gamebooks detailing more of the planes are The Prisoners of Time, Beyond the Nightmare Gate, and (as far as I know) Wolf's Bane, too.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if the planes of Aon are not made conform to the standard DnD planes but are allowed keep their own character when (and if) the Mongooses publish a sourcebook on them. (But after seeing August at work - or rather, the results of that - I doubt there will be much danger of that ... :D)


Paido
 

Smiling Fox

Mongoose
Don't know if this question has been answered somewhere, but how is the Daziarn voyage that a 19th level BoCS performed? It is a spiritual journey or does he go there physically? If it's physically how does he return? In the Lone Wolf books the Brotherhood believes that you can't return from Daziarn (before LW actually does it). Is it so that there are no lvl 20 BoCS in Magnamund?
 
blue crane said:
Will the 'Planes' be covered in the MoM supplement? If not, could someone please help me with regards to understanding the nature of the 'Planes of Existence'?

We all know that the 'Daziarn Plane' is much the same as the 'Astral Plane' - but what about the others? I suppose that like many of you, I too own the 'Dungeons & Dragons Manual of The Planes'. For those of you who do have it, what exactly are the other planes in terms of the planar categories of the above-mentioned book? For instance, is the 'Plane of Light' an 'Energy Plane'? Is the 'Plane of Air' an 'Elemental Plane'? And so on.

As far as I can tell from Prisoners of Time (and Beyond the Nightmare Gate - STILL my favorite of all the books), the Elemental Planes seem to be little more than pure manifestations of what they represent. Thus, fire is a sea of eternal flame, earth is solid stone and dirt, etc. Much as with D&D, it wouldn't really be possible to LIVE in any of those planes.

In the Grey Star books, he can use Elementalism to can call upon elemental spirits to aid him (and, in the RPG, magicians of Dessi can do so as well). In the books, it states flat-out that Grey Star is calling these spirits from "the Elemental Plane", so it's possible that they are all spiritual creatures who dwell in the Elemental Planes, but are capable of coming through to the physical world when called (though, apparently, the proper medium must be present as a gateway). It's somewhat vague, though, and is probably more of a GM's call whether or not the elemental spirits come from the elemental planes, or are simply present in nature itself, and are merely evoked by the magic.

The Plane of Light and the Plane of Darkness, though, are less like elemental planes, and are actually closer to Heaven and Hel (or, if you prefer, Vahalla and Niflheim, Olympus and Tartarus, etc). For visual purposes, it might even be better to refer to them as the Planes of Good and Evil.

Imagine, if you will, a world comprised entirely of every evil, wicked, twisted thing EVER. Toxic smoke, mutant creatures, darkness, beings of unimaginable evil power - this is the Plane of Darkness. We've never actually seen the Plane of Light in the books, though one can probably assume a similar mechanic - whatever sort of Paradise you can think of, populated by attractive and kind forces of Good.

As for the other entries on that map, Aon, of course, is the material plane, in which there are countless worlds, some good, some evil. Magnamund is the balance point - the last world which has not completely fallen to the Darkness, or been rescued by the Light, so whoever wins there, wins everything.

I'd hesitate to call the Daziarn the "astral plane", though. It's closer to a world of imagination made real, of beings powerful enough to shape the very reality that lies around them as if it were clay. The "natural" state of the Daziarn has been called the Neverness, and it's a bleak landscape of grey mists and endless space. When someone with a strong enough will goes there, however, they can create items, places, and even people out of the very raw essence of creation itself.

Every world and kingdom that exists in the Daziarn was created at some point by someone. Some of those creators are still there (like the Chaos-Master), while others seem to have died over the course of time (the Ironheart family). Once "created", these reality bubbles seem to remain mostly stable... though it's possible for someone to force their will over someone else's creation (what the Chaos-Master spends most of his time doing, apparently).


Smiling Fox said:
Don't know if this question has been answered somewhere, but how is the Daziarn voyage that a 19th level BoCS performed? It is a spiritual journey or does he go there physically? If it's physically how does he return? In the Lone Wolf books the Brotherhood believes that you can't return from Daziarn (before LW actually does it). Is it so that there are no lvl 20 BoCS in Magnamund?

Keeping in mind that this is ENTIRELY my own POV...

In PoT, Lone Wolf learns that the only way back to Aon is via a power greater than most humans possess - in other words, the Lorestones. If you break things down, Lone Wolf is unable to use the one-way Shadow Gate in reverse until he's straddling the line between Scion-Kai and Archmaster.

Or, in the RPG terms, when he reaches level 19.

If a level 19 Kai can physically travel between the planes, it's not entirely impossible that a level 20 Crystal Star mage could do the same...

So, when a level 19 Brother decides the time has come to Master the Word, as it were, perhaps they must pass through the Shadow Gate of Toran, questing through the Daziarn, until they discover some secret (even if that secret is only self-realization) which not only grants them the power to use the Grand Word, but also to return through the normally one-way Gate.

Needless to say, Brothers who fail in this quest aren't coming back... though, considering the dangers of the Daziarn, it's probably a toss-up as to whether they simply failed to "level up", as it were, or died trying.

One could suggest that knowing this return-trip is possible at all would tend to invalidate the Guild claiming the Shadow Gate is one-way... but, consider this - a Kai needs to be Archmaster or Grand Master to pass through the Shadow Gate, and how many Archmasters or Grand Masters are there at any given time? The answer is, precious few, probably. So, if you have to be a Master of the Word/Court Wizard to even be able to ATTEMPT this quest, and you have to become a Grand Master of the Word/Chancellor to SUCCEED... I'm thinking you probably only have a few people each generation who could pull it off.

Which means the Guild KNOWS that only the most powerful sorcerers Magnamund has ever seen could possibly survive... doing a quick bit of math, I'd estimate that fewer than 100 Brothers in the entire history of the Guild would have tried it - maybe 30-50 survived. That's like one success every 40-50 years or so.

So, if the most powerful members of your order only have a 50-50 chance of ever making it back alive, wouldn't you assume the door is one-way for nearly everyone else? I'd be fairly positive that the pirate captain and the poisoner aren't going to find a way through. Perfect means of disposing of criminals...

By that argument, about the only person who SHOULDN'T have been sent through was Vonotar, because not only was he a skilled Brother, but he also possessed secrets of the Left-Hand path which MIGHT have given him the strength to force the door open again. Which is exactly what he was trying to do in PoT.

I'm sure you could easily just assume that it's an astral quest (as it were) if you prefer that option, but it seems to me that the descent into Certain Death, as it were, seems by far the more heroic option. It's that Hero's Journey symbolism, where the wizard goes where no one else can go and survive, and comes back changed.
 
Smiling Fox said:
Don't know if this question has been answered somewhere, but how is the Daziarn voyage that a 19th level BoCS performed? It is a spiritual journey or does he go there physically? If it's physically how does he return? In the Lone Wolf books the Brotherhood believes that you can't return from Daziarn (before LW actually does it). Is it so that there are no lvl 20 BoCS in Magnamund?

The later Grandmaster books clarify this. Before Lone Wolf returned from the Daziarn, the Brotherhood never even knew return was possible or even what the Daziarn really was. They thought you just got banished to outer space. All they knew was, people go in, they don't come out. Sound like something you'd want to just jump into and hope for the best if you're the Guildmaster? After Lone Wolf told them of his experiences and what he learned, they starting some experimentation on their own and even developed some degree of control over the Shadow Gate, where they were able to send him directly to the plane they wanted. It's implied that in time they hoped to be able to master Shadow Gates themselves.

ParanoidObsessive said:
One could suggest that knowing this return-trip is possible at all would tend to invalidate the Guild claiming the Shadow Gate is one-way... but, consider this - a Kai needs to be Archmaster or Grand Master to pass through the Shadow Gate, and how many Archmasters or Grand Masters are there at any given time? The answer is, precious few, probably. So, if you have to be a Master of the Word/Court Wizard to even be able to ATTEMPT this quest, and you have to become a Grand Master of the Word/Chancellor to SUCCEED... I'm thinking you probably only have a few people each generation who could pull it off.

Most people who are reasonably hardy could probably survive the journey. And Lone Wolf still wasn't able to manipulate the Shadow Gates through his own power, it was the Lorestone's power that let him back. Otherwise he wouldn't have needed Alyss to keep sending him back later on. The problem, as stated above, is that probably no one who ever potentially had the power to return ever was ever crazy enough to try in the first place.
 

Ghost Bear

Mongoose
No one has the power to return. There is only one shadow gate that leads from the Daziarn to Magnamund, and that requires a great power to open it. a power such as the Lorestones. I'm assuming that a Grand Word of Power might be powerful enough, but prior to Book 12, no one's managed to return.

And the only reason Lone Wolf was able to return to Magnamund in the latter GM books is because the shadow gates he travels through were created by the power of the Moonstone. They weren't natural occurences.

-GB
 
Ghost Bear said:
And the only reason Lone Wolf was able to return to Magnamund in the latter GM books is because the shadow gates he travels through were created by the power of the Moonstone. They weren't natural occurences.

-GB

I remember going through Shadow Gates more than once in book 16. There was no Moonstone in that book.
 
Ghost Bear said:
No one has the power to return. There is only one shadow gate that leads from the Daziarn to Magnamund, and that requires a great power to open it. a power such as the Lorestones. I'm assuming that a Grand Word of Power might be powerful enough, but prior to Book 12, no one's managed to return.

To be more precise, no one's been known to be able to return on their own. And only one Shadow Gate from the Daziarn is known to exist. Endless possibilities still exist. What if the Brotherhood banished someone in the past who could return but decided staying in the Daziarn was better than returning for a certain execution? And everyone on the Daziarn Lone Wolf talked to were hardly omnipotent, the Chaos Master had had them cowed for ages and all things considered he wasn't really that tough.

And the only reason Lone Wolf was able to return to Magnamund in the latter GM books is because the shadow gates he travels through were created by the power of the Moonstone. They weren't natural occurences.

As far as we know. All things considered they probably were all created by Naar or Alyss with the Moonstone, though.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Walks with the Snails said:
Most people who are reasonably hardy could probably survive the journey.

Yeah, but the problem really isn't SURVIVING the journey, it's finding a way to make the one-way door swing the other way.


Walks with the Snails said:
And Lone Wolf still wasn't able to manipulate the Shadow Gates through his own power, it was the Lorestone's power that let him back.

Wellll, I always took it to be that, after gathering all the Lorestones, their power was contained in Lone Wolf (hence why they were always "drained" after he got the power boost), so that it wasn't the two Lorestones that he had which opened the way back in PoT, but the power of the SEVEN Lorestones which he held inside him.

This would also mean that, in the later books, Lone Wolf's jumping to and fro through Shadow Gates is possible because he's still got that built-up power going for him. Along with the fact that, in RPG terms, he'd be a level 29 Kai by that point. :wink:
 
ParanoidObsessive said:
Wellll, I always took it to be that, after gathering all the Lorestones, their power was contained in Lone Wolf (hence why they were always "drained" after he got the power boost), so that it wasn't the two Lorestones that he had which opened the way back in PoT, but the power of the SEVEN Lorestones which he held inside him.

There was some inconsistency there. I imagined them more as being a bit subdued immediately after Lone Wolf used them while they "recharged". Sun Eagle also used them for the same purpose as Lone Wolf, and they still had power later on for him. Zahda and others were also able to tap into the Lorestones' power without it apparently diminishing their power. They'd also be little less than decoration in Lone Wolf's chamber while he was developing the Grand Master Disciplines, too, but I think I read somewhere he was "bathed in their light" during his studies.

And game mechanics-wise, every Lorestone appeared to "teach" Lone Wolf a new Magnakai discipline save the last one, so it would somewhat support the idea he used it to open the Shadow Gate rather than to learn the last discipline and become a Grand Master on the spot. Presumably it would have time to recharge again while he was in the Darklands so he could use its power again to learn the last discipline.
 
Walks with the Snails said:
There was some inconsistency there. I imagined them more as being a bit subdued immediately after Lone Wolf used them while they "recharged". Sun Eagle also used them for the same purpose as Lone Wolf, and they still had power later on for him. Zahda and others were also able to tap into the Lorestones' power without it apparently diminishing their power. They'd also be little less than decoration in Lone Wolf's chamber while he was developing the Grand Master Disciplines, too, but I think I read somewhere he was "bathed in their light" during his studies.

You know, I believe there's an official explanation of that in one of the old fan club newsletters...
 
The Lone Wolf Planar Cosmology is an interesting one. Aon contains many different worlds, similar to the Prime Material plane, and entities can be summoned from these different worlds, similar to outsiders summoned from other planes of existence in D&D. Since each world is its own small plane, anything summoned from other worlds is not native to the world they appear on. The Plane of Darkness is all of the evil planes wrapped into one, and the Plane of Light has all of the good planes wrapped into one. So, it becomes very easy to transfer evil or good outsiders from D&D into d20 if evil or good entities summon them for their use. The Elemental Planes are made up of a single element, fire, air, water or air, and directly correspond with the Elemental Planes from D&D. The Daziarn is a linking plane between all of these planes, and realms can be created from them where two planes intersect, like the realms Lone Wolf explores in book 11. Earth and Water, etc.

Now then, I just looked through Prisoners of Time and in several places they speak of multiple Shadow Gates in multiple planes. Shadow Gates leading from a specific world of Aon to the Daziarn or realms constructed from the intersection of two planes are two way, but they need a key to be opened properly. Shadow gates from other planes to the Daziarn can be constructed via magic or psychic willpower, and gates to the Daziarn from Aon as well. Where one realm ends, the Neverness, or wastelands between realms carved out from the meeting of two planes or the Daziarn, are created. In the game setting, there are at least two Shadow Gates on Magnamund that lead to the Daziarn. The Shadow Gate of Toran is one, and the Shadow Gate in the Forbidden City is the other.

The Shadow Gate of Toran is used only for the disposal of vicious criminals, and the Shadow Gate in the Forbidden City is used for a wide variety of purposes. In the d20 RPG, a 19th level BOCS must go to the Daziarn and go on a quest to understand the greatest word of his order, which he assigns to whatever power word he wishes to make his supreme art. A temporary gate to the Daziarn is created, since the Shadow Gate is only opened for trials and emergencies. The mage steps through the temporary gate, and is good to go. He either dies, or completes his quest for his great word of power, and uses his new knowledge to open a gate back (one time only. Kind of like a ticket to a Superbowl game. The game is always different.) Wytches of Shadaki or Wytch Children may open portals to the Daziarn directly, without the need of the Shadow Gate, via the rank 10 power of the ways of going. It stands to reason that a permanent Shadow Gate can only be created via semi divine or divine will/magic, several powerful human or non-human mages or psychics working together, or one ultimately powerful one doing the same (Lone Wolf as a Kai Grand Master).

So what does this mean to you? If you want to run quests and other adventures in the Daziarn, go pick up the Manual of the Planes and some of the Monster Manuals, pick the place you want the PCs to go, and build a realm there populated by outsiders and other creatures that work drawn from those books.
 
Stormcrow the White Wolf said:
In the game setting, there are at least two Shadow Gates on Magnamund that lead to the Daziarn. The Shadow Gate of Toran is one, and the Shadow Gate in the Forbidden City is the other.

There's a third - the one in the basement of Torgar. It would have to be somewhat permanent, since the set-up of that chamber seems to have been built around it. And I'd doubt Gnaag had the power to catch a mobile Shadow Gate and nail it in place, as it were, since even Naar needed the Moonstone to make his own Gates.

This raises an interesting question, though. If we now have 2 stationary Gates and 1 mobile Gate on our list, which is the more natural state? Do most Shadow Gates move around, or is the one Grey Star finds an abberation?

Recall, that from things said in the Grey Star books, the moving Gate he finds isn't the only one that moves... the Kundi spoke of finding "A" Gate, not "THE" Gate, and said that the ruins of Gyanima was where ONE of the Gates would open...


Stormcrow the White Wolf said:
The Shadow Gate of Toran is used only for the disposal of vicious criminals, and the Shadow Gate in the Forbidden City is used for a wide variety of purposes.

Except we strongly get the impression that the Gate in Gyanima wasn't there long enough to be used for anything (which is why time is of the essence, and Grey Star needs to get to it at a certain point in time).

As far as we know, that particular Gate might wink out of existance right after he passes through, then show up again a week later in Forlu. Or, for that matter, it might show up again in Lencia, or Durenor...


Stormcrow the White Wolf said:
It stands to reason that a permanent Shadow Gate can only be created via semi divine or divine will/magic, several powerful human or non-human mages or psychics working together, or one ultimately powerful one doing the same (Lone Wolf as a Kai Grand Master).

Which begs the question - when Shasarak opened the Demon Door in the Lissan Plain, was that a Shadow Gate? And, if so, then why couldn't Naar have opened a similar Shadow Gate directly to the Pit of Eternal Pain to free Agarash when he had his hands on the Moonstone? I certainly would have, if I was him.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
the Pit of Eternal Pain is some form of banishment. If you think about it, the Agarash mythology is still unsettled. I mean, Shasarak agrees to take Agarash' place to avoid being killed by Grey Star. I imagine that leaving the Pit of Eternal Pain is a bit more complicated than merely having a Moonstone or anything of that nature.

Notice also that the gate to the Pit is one wreathed in flame. Though I assume the Pit is in the Plane of Darkness, it may be governed by different rules. It's a bit confusing that Roark is able to summon Tagazin from the same place.

What's interesting is that the Moonstone is now in the hands of the Shianti and we're told that they go up to the Plane of Light(though the newsletter is off on the chronology, because they attribute the passing of the Moonstone to Grey Star--obv not the case) So could Kai and Ishir do what Naar did? They COULD, but they wouldnt as they don't cheat how Naar does.

That's why Alyss acts on her own(sympathetic to Kai and Ishir) to balance out Naar's cheating ways.

Though the Plane of Darkness seems physical, remember that LW uses his Spirit Walk at many points in the 20th book. I think that while it manifests itself as a physical creation, there is an 'astral' aspect to existence in the non-material Planes.

Must be kick-arse to ascend to the Plane of Light.
 
Ghost of Landar said:
the Pit of Eternal Pain is some form of banishment. If you think about it, the Agarash mythology is still unsettled. I mean, Shasarak agrees to take Agarash' place to avoid being killed by Grey Star. I imagine that leaving the Pit of Eternal Pain is a bit more complicated than merely having a Moonstone or anything of that nature.

The impression that I got, and this might be completely wrong, is that in order for Agarash to be freed, someone must take his place. In the book, Shasarak offers to do this when Grey Star whoops him (though, because the Door is destroyed before Agarash comes through, the net effect is that BOTH of them are now trapped there).

But, since Agarash is ALSO capable of taking control of Grey Star's mind in the Lissan Plain, and forcing him to enter the Door and take his place (if you screw up too badly), it seems that the only real requirement to free Agarash is for someone else, willing or no, to physically take his place.

So, if the Door in Lissan WAS an artificial Shadow Gate, then Naar should have been capable of opening the door to the Pit of Eternal Pain, then sending one of his minions, or just some random innocent dupe through to free one of his most effective lieutenants.

If you think about it, the only reason Agarash failed was due to the Elder Magi. And since they're gone now, one can only assume Agarash would be more effective than he was before...
 
Naar isn't too tolerant of failure, though. When you kill his champion in the throne room, he's more upset at the minion's failure than the fact you killed him, and off to eternal punishment he goes. I kinda figure Agarash is just on his own now. If he manages to get out on his own, fine, maybe Naar will forgive his previous mistakes, if not, so what.
 
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