Limiting Hit Point Progression

[rgrove0172]

Im a d20 rookie and my players have just reached 3rd level. I wont pretend to have a complete underestanding of the system but I am beginning to imgaine the effect of higher level and massive hit point levels on play. Ive also read several threads across the web talking about this as a common problem in d20 - ie the lack of weapon effectiveness against higher level characters and how this supposed imperviousness changes the way the game is played.

Now I am familiar of course with the effects of muliple damage criticals and the max damage threshold, but these do not in most cases change the fact that a decently ranked character is going to throw up his nose at a low level dagger strike or archer on the rooftop, even without armor.

Without bashing the system or suggesting some sweeping change in the combat and injury is handled, has anyone considered simply hindering hit-point progression? Higher level characters will still be tougher to take on as their Dodge and Parry bonuses will continue to escalate and certain combat oriented Feats and such aid in their defense, but the experience will make them harder to hit and not quite so bullet proof - which seems a bit more realistic, expecially in a gritty-grim sort of genre like Conan, or do you guys feel high HP is more suitable in a Heroic genre like Conan?

Thoughts? Comments?

My thought is to allow max HP at Level 1, regular rolls till level 3, half rolls till level 5 and then a very limited progression afterward - like 1 or 2 points based on die type per level afterward with a possibility of a bonus HP due to CON stat or something. Still just brainstorming but Id appreciate your input.

 

[Majestic7]

Well, I give the players 3/4 of the hit dice instead of rolling. Conan gives them hit points only for the first ten levels anyway. You should as well note that having a lot of hit points isn't really that important in Conan, because of the massive damage rule. The 20 points threshold is pretty easy to reach with sneak attack, two-handed weapons and criticals. I think enduring punishment fits fine to the spirit of Howard¨s stories - after all, many of his heroes are "iron men", who get beaten up constantly but always rise back on their feet.

 

[Ichabod]

Medium to high level characters shouldn't care about a low level dagger strike. The medium to high level thief who sneak attacks is going to do 1d4+4d8 or something. The archer on the rooftop is either going to have sneak attack or should be 6 archers on the rooftop with Rapid Shot and Bossonian Bows built for 18 strength.

Conan is very, very different from, say, D&D. As said, 20 is easy to reach (if you use the right weapon or have enough thief levels). You may want something different where every weapon is lethal, but there are plenty of other ways to do that.

And, the reality is is that a lot of opposition can do huge amounts of damage without forcing MDS's. Take 10 a shot and get hit three times a round and you use a lot of hit points. Also, healing is time dependent in Conan. If you really want to blow through hit points, string together multiple battles or add in environmental sources of damage (common in our campaign). Sure, characters can often heal up after a couple days of bed rest, but that's up to you.

Can always add more enemies. Volume definitely matters.

My main character was a massive hit point sponge. He still has gotten a lot of use out of Diehard. I actually have thought that the high number of hit points has been wasteful as one MDS can make them meaningless. Also, because combat is so brutal so often, you'd much rather deal a lot of damage than be able to take a lot of damage.

I'd just play things as is and see for yourself whether it turns into a problem. There are tons of things I'd worry about before how many HP characters have, like the massive discrepancy in damage output between weapons and fighting styles.

 

[DasClay]

agreed! as a player, you want to be able to NOT get hit, or Have armor so good it doesnt matter, but the way Conan is setup, and the steep cost of plated armour, Its a slim chance for the latter to happen. Reaching the 20points of dmg, can come easier than you think, because compaired to DnD, you get alot more feats (mostly combative) and the Multiclass PC IMHO has a clear advantage, because to me the Conan game is about versatility. Fighting in Conan is a Offensive game.

As a GM, numbers are you friend, you should ask MadDog about the scores of Picts that he threw at us at lvl1, and had us running for our lives, even at level 4, we still repect them. Its not so much about HD encounter lvl like in DnD, as it is numbers...

 

[Trodax]

Well, the thing that will cause problems with this houserule is that combat will become deadlier the higher level you are. Why? Because BAB increases faster than dodge/parry and you get more and more attacks at higher levels. So more and more attacks will hit per turn, and if you don't have increasing hit points to compensate, high-level fights will end very quickly.

It can be done of course, but I'll think you'd have to adjust more than one thing to get it to work nicely. In True20, for example, where you don't have increasing damage-resistence (it's in the form of a saving throw instead of hip points in that game) defence and attack advance at exactly the same rate and you never get multiple attacks.

 

[Se Chris]

Something else worth noting is that the damage of weapons is higher in Conan than it is in base d20, so even without massive damage those hit points will drop faster than you might think.

Failing that... a Strength 18, greatsword-wielding, crimson-misting, power-attacking barbarian can dish out about 20 damage (before DR) every time he hits someone - and that's a level 2 character.

Even someone with 100 hp has to worry about that kind of pain.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I don't think the chars get too many HP at all. I deifnitely don't see a need to further reduce them. It's okay if you want your players to fear for the characters' lives with every step they take, but this is CONAN and they are supposed to kick ass.

I do the following in our group:

Levels 1-3: maximum HP
Levels 4-10: 3/4 HD per level
Levels 11+: as written.

It's a little awkward because you have to keep track of half points, but the only way to avoid that would be giving 1/2 HD, and that is a little too wimpy for my liking.

 

[DasClay]

I tell people all the time about the Gritty nature of Conan, I tell them to Role play, and get as much out the game as they can because the Combat, is nasty... And try not to get too attached to there PCs, cause unlike DnD there are no Clerics hanging around in town to heal you. Levels arent that important in Conan either, Which Chris just provided, A few well placed hits by a combative 2nd lvl PC, or a sneaky theif at the right moment and (a bad die roll) your 10 lvl whatever is going down.

 

[Clovenhoof]

What Troday said: Attack increases faster and gets higher than Defense. That's true and helps keeping combat short and deadly already. Now a highlevel fighter-type will do his best to strike first and strike hard. In the best case, he knocks out his opponents before they can strike back. Otherwise, he'll just have to soak it and hope he doesn't get MDKd.

Now if you further cripple HP (keep in mind that a highlevel D&D fighter will have 300HP where a normal Conan fighter has around 100), you _force_ players to be much more defensive. They will take Combat Expertise and use it most of the time.
Sort of reminds me of an old Hägar the Horrible comic, where a combatant known as Canute the Cautious or something is hiding behind a huge tower shield. Not very Conanesque.

 

[Axerules]

I agree with most of your posts. I also think that Conan is about being offensive and causing damage. I'm a player (and not a GM) in another Sword and Sorcery D20 game, Midnight and it's more about sustaining or avoiding damage.

In one of my games my players were 11th levels. One of my PC's faced Olger Vladislev (12th or 13th level Nomad, I can't remember on the fly) in a plain, both were on warhorses. He also played an horseman. The fight lasted one round. It was only about having the best initiative. Both had far more chances to hit (and to cause MD saves) than to miss.

The 80/100 HP of your high-level PC allow him only to wade through scores of low-level mooks, who will miss him often. When they face the main adversary, the bad guy or the big monster, they know they can die very quick.

Very interesting posts and good summations of what combat's all about in this RPG.

Outside the HPs, another thing that clearly sets apart players and importants NPCs from the others are the Fate Points. Every PC should try to keep one, but when they start a game with few FPs, believe me, even if they're really nasty, they become a little bit more cautious and don't start fights all the time !

 

[argo]

IMX between the Massive Damage threshold and capping HP at 10 HD the game stays plenty deadly at any level. Crits, sneak attack, power attack, loosing your class bonus to DV when flat-footed, combat manuvers, reduced TWF penalties, increased damage dice... there are all sorts of small rules tweaks already built into the system to keep the game lethal without needing to resort to something as heavy-handed as stopping HP progression at level 5.

Remember, having a big pool of HP is what allows your heroes to face down the BBEG's mook squad, then still go and kick in the BBEG's door on the same day! Which is very in genre.

Also, if one mook with a dagger isn't enough to threaten your PC's then have that mook bring a dozen or so of his closest buddies. Fighting a horde of mooks is also very in genre...

Hope that helps.

 

[therion666]

Game of thrones has approached this in another angle,
Characters with 1D6 HD get a flat 1 hp gain on a new level plus Con bonus, PC's with 1D8 get 2 plus Con, 1D10 get 3 plus con. All get maximum HP at 1st level ( as in 6hp plus con, 8hp plus con, 10hp plus con) but after that as listed above.
I'd say that was the best way of dealing with high hit points. I'd like to mention though that I have now always halved the sneak attack bonus's of rogue type character classes and replaced them with fighter feats. Makes the character more interesting to play and stops the ROGUES totally outdoing the fighters in combat which is ridiculous.
Finally in conan the sneak attack only applies if the base damage gets through the armour.
For example a thief sneak attacks a warrior with DR 6 but rolls 1D6( weapon) adds his strength bonus of +1, only does 5 points of damage so no sneak attack dice are rolled.
In short you need to get past the armour to hit the vitals!

 

[Trodax]

Finally in conan the sneak attack only applies if the base damage gets through the armour.
For example a thief sneak attacks a warrior with DR 6 but rolls 1D6( weapon) adds his strength bonus of +1, only does 5 points of damage so no sneak attack dice are rolled.
In short you need to get past the armour to hit the vitals!

This rule is actually in Conan 2nd edition.