Limit on the magnitude of spells for new characters?

[simonh]

That is because previous versions of RQ you had to learn Heal-1,2 and 3 in order to learn Heal-4. Now you can learn Heal-4 straight away if you like (and your GM approves).

We're splitting this conversation across two threads now!

This is true, but it didn't have any practical effect on your ability to learn the spells. Also in fact if a shaman summoned or found a spirit knowing Heal 4 he could gain the full spell from it streight off.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Hoitsu]

Atleast in my previous version of RQ it is said that you MUST lear the previous magnitudes first, even if you use those spell spirits. In fact those spell spirits are the the only way to learn spells. Cult or Shaman fetches the spirit and then you engage to spirit combat with it. If you win, you learn the spirit spell.

But we are mostly discussing the new MRQ here so it doesnt matter what the rules where in the past So lets get back the MRQ part of the converstion

 

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

The main reason I can see for the cost of spells is the ability to buy a high magnitude without a lower. I think I will probably revert to the requirement to learn each magnitude and drop the prices.

Mind you I will also eliminate the requirement to integrate a rune from the ability to runecast up to low magnitude levels - replaced with focii.

Regards

 

[Arkat]

You still need foci of a sort for the spells anyways as each rune is 'on' something that the pc needs to retain.

 

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

In my current plan a character can learn up to a 2 Magnitude spell from a cult and learn Ruecasting for that spell (not rune). He is then able to carve or paint the rune on himslef or an item using the appropriate colours/strokes. This process takes a while for each time he does it and the rune image - the focus if you will - is one use in that it is unusable a second time (I suspect it also gives off a smell, flare or sound as it is used up). So a character has to have a lot of runes readied.

This is also the way that non-combat rune magic works although with a good bonus for extra time eg make my seed more fertile, turn the furrow more deeply on this field etc.

However you would have to be a reasonably well off small holder to afford one spell and the training every couple of years. Only nobles, merchants, templars etc would have the funds or influence to get more and some of these may have integrated runes anyway.

Regards

 

[simonh]

In my current plan a character can learn up to a 2 Magnitude spell from a cult and learn Ruecasting for that spell (not rune).

Why only 2 magnitude? The current rules don't say that cults limit how many points you can learn from them.

 

[zanshin]

Why only 2 magnitude? The current rules don't say that cults limit how many points you can learn from them.

I thought it was clear that cults would teach up to magnitude 2 of any spell , and up to magnitude 4 of cult spells to Initiates.

Did i read it /remember it wrongly?

 

[Exubae]

Where do rune spells come from?
Or how do the priest get hold of their protection 10's?
Is there a method of creating rune magics?

Haven't picked the companion yet, is this mentioned within its covers?

Cheers
Paul

 

[Exubae]

I thought it was clear that cults would teach up to magnitude 2 of any spell , and up to magnitude 4 of cult spells to Initiates.

Can't help feeling this is a bit artifical, surely this should be limited by the priests (Number of, spells known, and experience) and the value they see in the cult member. The only thing in it is favour is that it is a quick and dirty method of regulating magic.
From a cultural point of view rather than a gameist-
It would be better to have the people of a religion trained in magic that best supports the culture and the religion, the better the magic the bet support they give to their community.
A priest who grants the local Redsmith 'Bludgeon' to assist in his metal working, would likely grant the smith the spell at the best level he can teach - the smith provides the community with weapon heads, shods horse, and provides numerous resources - why would you limit his magic to 2 or 4. When the benefit of his abilities can grant the temple and the community so much?

Paul

 

[Hoitsu]

Quote from the Core Book:

"The initiate will have automatic acces to tutors who can teach any spell listed in the magic chapter whose magnitude is not greater than 2 and cult spells (those only tough by the cult) up to a Magnitude of 4."

Referring to the book, AColytes can learn any spell up to mag 4 and cult spells up to mag 8. Rune priests can learn any spell up to mag 8 and cult spells of _any_ magnitude. Finally RuneLords learns spells similarly to Runepriests. This is the method that will be the "heart" of cults in Glorantha too.

 

[simonh]

Quote from the Core Book:

"The initiate will have automatic acces to tutors who can teach any spell listed in the magic chapter whose magnitude is not greater than 2 and cult spells (those only tough by the cult) up to a Magnitude of 4."

To clarify that, it says they get automatic access to tutors. It doesn't say they aren't allowed to learn the spells to higher magnitudes. ALso the half-price teaching rules isn't limited by magnitude, so they can learn e.g. 6 poin spells from the cult at half price, IF a tutor is available, but at that magnitude access isn't guaranteed.

 

[StephenT]

A priest who grants the local Redsmith 'Bludgeon' to assist in his metal working, would likely grant the smith the spell at the best level he can teach - the smith provides the community with weapon heads, shods horse, and provides numerous resources - why would you limit his magic to 2 or 4. When the benefit of his abilities can grant the temple and the community so much?

Easy. You limit his magic to 2 unless he becomes an initiate of your cult, because you want an incentive to convince him to join... :twisted:

More members means more tithes to pay for those fancy temples, more people to send out to do dirty jobs for you, and more worship energy going to your God. So why would a priest ever give something for free when restricting it benefits both himself and his deity?

 

[Exubae]

Easy. You limit his magic to 2 unless he becomes an initiate of your cult, because you want an incentive to convince him to join...

More members means more tithes to pay for those fancy temples, more people to send out to do dirty jobs for you, and more worship energy going to your God. So why would a priest ever give something for free when restricting it benefits both himself and his deity?

Ok, but he'ld serve his community better if he had Bludgeon 6
If he becomes an acolyte or priest his time becomes diverrted from his primary task and becomes tied to preaching and ministering.

Perhaps I'm trying to attach a deeper sense of realism to the rules here, perhaps thats a bad thing.

I kind of worry - probably unnecessarily that Mongoose go back to RQ2 cult view, where the cult ties to culture become light weight.

Heroquest hate or like it opened up the cults and modelled them well within the culture and gave that sense of realism, which can be pretty easily to adopt to RQ.

Take 3rd Age Sartar the majority of the people worship Orlanth or Ernalda, effectivelly a state religion, effectivelly every one is lay member by being born a Sartarite. 95% of the population take Initiation into Orlanth or Ernalda, it is a step to Manhood/womanhood.
Acolytes, Priest, Lords follow specialised sub cults of Orlanth associated to common professions.
An acolyte of Orstan (Orlanth) allfather is the clan's Carpenter , an acolyte of Starkval (Orlanth) allfather commands the clans Fyrd, the Priest of Dar sits in the seat of the clan chief advised by the clan ring.

The can providing only the sub cults and cults it needs to make its way in the world. Other cults rarely encrouching, only where their specialised skills are required:

Along side The Upland Marsh the cult of Humakt thrives, near the Footprint and Snake Pipe Hollow Urox cult is strong, Issaries comes into his own where cities spring up.

Sheeeet, thats the long way around of saying,
Shouldn't each cult provide only the rune magic its followers need, and the only limitation placed upon them being an expected service to the cult.
Why shouldn't the Carpenter have bladesharp 8 for his plane, saws and Chisels, if he has got the time and inclination to learn the magic why should he be restricted, it serves the comunity for him to beable to do his job well.

I could witter on about cultures pulling together and working as a unit to support each other... yeeez but thats taking toooo much from heroquest

Paul

 

[StephenT]

Ok, but he'ld serve his community better if he had Bludgeon 6
If he becomes an acolyte or priest his time becomes diverrted from his primary task and becomes tied to preaching and ministering.

I've not got that far in the MRQ rulebook (only bought it recently) but in both RQ2/3 and HQ, that's not true.

A Runelord of the Carpenter God, or a Devotee of Orstan, gets full access to all his God's magic [one-use as a RL, but still], but doesn't have to spend time preaching and ministering. He's not a priest - that would be a Rune Priest in RQ or a Godi (as a profession) in HQ. He's still a carpenter, but one so closely identified with his god that he practically embodies the divine power.

I could witter on about cultures pulling together and working as a unit to support each other... yeeez but thats taking toooo much from heroquest

Sartar, as currently described, isn't a communist utopia. The priests might see the benefit in having a good carpenter or blacksmith in their clan, but they've also got to eat...

Also, so far I've been concentrating on the mundane aspects of it. If we assume that RQ magic comes from the gods, then it could simply be harder or more time-consuming to teach someone a spell if they don't have a strong link to that god: and the more powerful the spell, the harder it gets.

 

[Hoitsu]

Could be so, but MRQ´Core book magic is not _that_ rune magic what was in old versions. This the Spirit Magic used in RQ2 and RQ3. That "one use magic" called Runemagic in old versions, is called Divine Magic in the MRQ.

Just for clarification

 

[simonh]

In previous editions, teaching spirit magic required significant effort to the teacher becasue you had to have the spellteaching spell, or summon spirits, etc. Therefore there was a cost to providing that service. In MRQ it's not quite as clear what that cost is, but it appears to be just the time and effort of teaching rather than requiring risk or resources. Even so, it's a cost.

I realy don't see any justification for cults limiting access to magic. They don't according to the basic rules, and anyway if they did the worshipers could just go to an independent magician and learn it anyway, albeit at extra cost, thus undermining the authority of the cult.

However in RQ3 learning divine magic was something you pretty much did by your self, only requiring access to a suitable shrine or temple. Now of course maintining that place of worship has a cost, but not an extra expenditure of resources or risk or even the time of the priest. It'll be interesting to see how this works out in the Companion. The cost involved in Divine Magic was realy just the expenditure of POW (and a small nominal fee, IIRC).

 

[Exubae]

A Runelord of the Carpenter God, or a Devotee of Orstan, gets full access to all his God's magic [one-use as a RL, but still], but doesn't have to spend time preaching and ministering. He's not a priest - that would be a Rune Priest in RQ or a Godi (as a profession) in HQ. He's still a carpenter, but one so closely identified with his god that he practically embodies the divine power.

I agree with you, but I'm not talking about Divine (2nd ed Rune) magic but the new editions Rune Magic (aka Spirit or Battle magic).
Rune magic (MRQ) is the new common magic available to one and all - so there is nothing to stop 'bob' the carpenter troting off to the local Kolati shaman and trying to convince a trade for the spell, as Simonh has pointed out.

Sorry, my point got rather mudied as my points usually do, with other thoughts drifting in as I typed.

 

[Exubae]

In previous editions, teaching spirit magic required significant effort to the teacher becasue you had to have the spellteaching spell, or summon spirits, etc. Therefore there was a cost to providing that service. In MRQ it's not quite as clear what that cost is, but it appears to be just the time and effort of teaching rather than requiring risk or resources. Even so, it's a cost.

This is my one of my issues with Rune magic, its origin, or how is an individual spell first learnt- does it come from studying a mastered rune?
(Is this mentioned in the Companion?).
Is it some spiritual interaction with the First Rune?

 

[Utgardloki]

What if it costs hero points to learn a spell, say 1 hero point per magnitude.

That way, few NPCs would be able to learn Bladesharp 8, because they wouldn't have the hero points to spend.

My own interpretation is that hero points represents the ability to dedicate oneself to an extraordinary effort. An analogy might be that almost anybody could learn CPR, but that would require getting off the couch, turning off the TV, and attending a CPR class. Not a whole lot of effort, but one that a lot of people don't undertake.

(Aside, I went to schools where they "taught" CPR as part of the Physical Education program, but the whole thing was handled as a joke :evil: . If they had taken the effort seriously, maybe the time would not have been just wasted :evil: )

This could be one way to restrict magic use if you don't want just anybody using magic.

Another restriction is the availability of runes. In a "by the book" campaign, magic is as common or rare as you want it, based on the availability of runes. In my RQ-Modern campaign, where runes are not available, I decided that gold has to be used in the rune in order to make them rare.